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New tests, symposium, curious as to your thoughts.

Dressage
#41

Ok…question for all you judges and L-grads…

So…here is 4th-2 test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeeGRqBzoE

Is there a disconnect between the judge’s comments and the marks?

In the dressage rule book, the numbers do not exist in a vacuum. The numbers have descriptors…"Fairly Good, Good, Insufficient…etc.

Below is a transcription of the judges marks and comments…The question is whether the “Descriptor” is in line with the “Comment.”

For example, in a movement where the comments is, “Swapped leads in the beginning” is a score of “Insufficient” appropriate…or should it be “Fairly Bad” or even “Bad”…or “Abrupt almost walks”…does that merit a “Satisfactory” …or should it be Insufficient…or Fairly Bad…and there are others.
. [TABLE=“border: 1, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0”]
[TR]
[TD]Score[/TD]
[TD]Comment[/TD]
[TD]Descriptor for Score[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could have more bend in ribs[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]A little bit hurried[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.5[/TD]
[TD]Could have more bend, but uphill[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Needs cadence[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could be more fluid[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Medium trot[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Smooth transition; (walk) Could cover more ground and reach even more[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could be more fluid in turn[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]Stepped wide one step, left hind[/TD]
[TD]Satisfactory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Good activity and rythm[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could jump into canter more[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]A little bit hurried[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]Needs more bend[/TD]
[TD]Satisfactory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Flying change[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could be more uphill[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Very well done, super balanced[/TD]
[TD]Excellent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.5[/TD]
[TD]Swapped leads in the begining[/TD]
[TD]Insufficient[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Mistakes[/TD]
[TD]Insufficient[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Flying change[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Abrupt almost walks[/TD]
[TD]Satisfactory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Problems[/TD]
[TD]Insufficient[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Could be more direct to immobility but lands square[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
.
Below is the dressage judging scale
. [TABLE=“border: 1, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0”]
[TR]
[TD]Number Mark[/TD]
[TD]Descriptor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]Not executed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Very Bad[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Bad[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Bad[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Insufficient[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Marginal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Satisfactory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Fairly Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Very Good[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Excellent[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

#42

That may be oversimplifying the judging process - but basically, yes, a horse with 8 gaits and minor training issues (or ocassional major issues), will still probably have the advantage over the 6 mover that is more correct. Disheartening, but in many cases, true.

When the judges score each movement, they look at the basics first - and the overriding basic is quality of the gaits. Then submission, impulsion, rider - the basics are essentially the collective marks. THEN the judge looks at the essence of the movement (for example shoulder in - the angle and bend). Then they consider any minor issues that may have occurred outside of the movement (a stumble in the corner for example).

If you look at a score sheet - let’s pick one - Training Level Test 3 https://www.usdf.org/docs/showflash/web/tests/2019/USEF_TLT3.pdf. Look at the directive of each movement - what is the FIRST thing listed in almost every single movement? Regularity and quality of the (gait). That tells you what the priority is. When the movement is a transition, then the transition quality is listed first, but the next thing listed is - regularity and quality of the (gait).

Again, if you audit an L program, or volunteer in a judge’s program, or scribe for a judge, you will see that over and over - that comes down to us from the FEI.

If your horse has a natural 6 trot - you can work really, really hard to eke out a 6.5 or 7.0, be very very correct to get that 7.0. If your horse has an 8 trot - you can throw away quality somewhere else, and still get a 7.0. That is how dressage is scored. THAT is why people buy horses that are too much for them to ride - because even if they ride that trot poorly and lose a point for it, they have a 7.0. Whereas you start with a 6.0 trot, and you have to ride like all heck to eke out an extra point. I realize this is really over-simplifying how it works, but yes, basically, that is it in a nutshell.

If you go back 20 years, the dressage tests looked different - the directives didn’t all start with “quality of the (gait)” - they started with the essence of the movement. Somewhere in my closet, I have some of those older tests - they do read very differently.

4 Likes
#43

We have always been able to delete comments, though a poster can’t delete a comment of theirs quoted by someone else, they can delete the original.
Maybe you’re thinking of threads?

I enjoyed watching the test videos. Thanks!

1 Like
#44

I think of it this way; an 8 for gaits horse ridden properly but slightly BTV for most of a test would still score higher than a 6.5 gait horse ridden “properly.” (whatever “properly” means)

#45

I am guessing you are bothered by all the 7s? Could be more uphill, 7; could be more fluid, 7; could have better angle, 7, and so on? I think it is judge’s shorthand, if she said “fairly good, could be more uphill”, would you have felt better about it? I think she was explaining why the movements were NOT getting 8s. They actually teach you in the L program - when you get to 7s, 8s, 9s, explain WHY it wasn’t higher.

BTW, when that first working piro happened, I have to admit, I gasped… It was amazingly good - especially at 4th level! So I can go with a 10 on that one - I was thinking is that a 9 or a 10…

4 Likes
#46

The question is how is “Quality of the gaits” defined?

In the US Rulebook sections DR 102-106 the gaits are described. The only descriptor I see there is “general impression”…which gives pretty much free license. [INDENT][I]104-3. The quality of the trot is judged by general impression, i.e. the regularity and elasticity of the steps,

105-3. The quality of the canter is judged by the general impression, i.e. the regularity and lightness of the steps and the uphill tendency and cadence originating from the acceptance of the bridle with a supple poll and in the engagement of the hindquarters with an active hock action - and by the ability of maintaining the same rhythm and a natural balance, even after a transition from one canter to another.[/I][/INDENT]

#47

I am not bothered by the 7’s. I am bothered by the inconsistency of what is in the rulebook for score descriptors say, and the judge’s comments.

In my book, if a judge wants “more”…as in “Could be more…xxxx” that movement is only “Satisfactory.” It does not not come up to the standards of “Good.”

#48

I didn’t watch the test, so am just going by the comments and scores as you recorded them but can’t quite map them to the 4-2 test. (there are 23 movements, you only list 22 scores and there’s only 1 movement where a single flying change is scored but you show 2). I’ll just focus on the 7s.

I’m OK with the score of 7 and a comment of “could be whatever”, because what I learned in the L program is to think in terms of:

Could be: here’s what you need to do to score the next point up, one could say, “fairly good, just missing this thing to be good”
Should be: here’s where you are missing some aspect of the essence of the movement
Must be: here’s where you are not meeting the requirements of the level/movement

Also, keep in mind that any movement is judged until the start of the next movement so that may also influence a score that you think may be too high.

I’ll go watch the ride now.

YMMV

1 Like
#49

You and I (and many others who have been around for many decades) all know that the OLD definition had much more to do with rhythm and regularity. Now it has just as much to do with reach, scope, elasticity, freedom. Wish I had an old rule book to compare the changes in language, but just looking at the trot (as an example), the language now says:

DR104 The Trot
[I]1. The trot is a two-beat gait of alternate diagonal legs (left fore and right hind leg and vice versa) separated by a moment of suspension.

  1. The trot should show free, active and regular steps.

[3. The quality of the trot is judged by general impression, i.e. the regularity and elasticity of the steps, the cadence and impulsion in both collection and extension. This quality originates from a supple back and well-engaged hindquarters, and by the ability to maintain the same rhythm and natural balance with all variations of the trot.

  1. The following trots are recognized: Working trot, Lengthening of Steps, Collected trot, Medium trot and Extended

a. Working trot. This is a pace between the collected and the medium trot, in which a horse’s training is not yet developed enough and ready for collected movements. The horse shows proper balance and, remaining “on the bit”, goes forward with even, elastic steps and good hock action. The expression “good hock action” underlines the importance of an impulsion originating from the activity of the hindquarters.

b. Lengthening of stride. In some tests, “lengthening of stride” is required. This is a variation between the working and medium trot in which a horse’s training is not developed enough for medium trot.

c. Collected trot. The horse, remaining “on the bit”, moves forward with the neck raised and arched. The hocks, being well-engaged and flexed, must maintain an energetic impulsion, enabling the shoulders to move with greater mobility, thus demonstrating complete self-carriage. Although the horse’s steps are shorter than in the other trots, elasticity and cadence are not lessened.

d. Medium trot. This is a pace of moderate lengthening compared to the extended trot, but “rounder” than the latter. Without hurrying, the horse goes forward with clearly lengthened steps and with impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse to carry the head a little more in front of the vertical than at the collected and the working trot, and to lower the head and neck slightly. The steps should be even, and the whole movement balanced and unconstrained.

e. Extended trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Without hurrying, the steps are lengthened to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse to lengthen the frame and to gain ground whilst controlling the poll, The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards which they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should reach equally forward in the moment of extension. The whole movement should be well-balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hindquarters. [/I]

So they refer to elastic steps, impulsion, good hock action, cadence, suspension, and so on in the rule book.

#50

That is not the way judges are trained. Judge is telling the rider why it wasn’t an 8. Lets face it, any movement could always have “more” or something. Even a score of 10 is not perfect…

7 Likes
#51

I agree that judges are not trained to look at the “Descriptor.”

I am saying the judges should. They should actually read the descriptors that go with the number and judge according to the conventional meaning of the words.

In other words map the descriptor to the number…NOT to pick a number then make a comment that seems inconsistent with the descriptor.

#52

Regarding the quality of gaits, this past spring I scribed at Lamplight during the Championships. I was the “watcher” for the judges on the side during the Young Horse test. I saw a 10 trot.
Oh my. THere was no doubt, even in MY untrained/not a judge eye, that it was a 10. It bounced off the ground. It was so rhythmic. It was amazing.

BTW it was an American-bred horse - Habanero CWS 6YO Horse of the Year.

I also saw a 9 walk.

Once you see them, you know.

1 Like
#53

THey don’t “pick a number” and make an inconsistent comment. “Fairly Good” , in COMMON USAGE, means there is room for improvement. If you are told your work is “fairly good”, you know something is missing. The judge is telling them WHAT is missing (or, one fo the things missing…)

You are SO unhappy with SO much of what USDF does. You are unhappy with the very foundation of what they do - apparently they took a turn somewhere away from what you think dressage in America should look like. It appears that turn was made LONG ago - and frankly I doubt there is any going back and redirecting. WHy don’t you look towards the Baroque Equestrian Games folks - look it up. Might be more to your liking.

5 Likes
#54

A movement is not a single moment, but a series of moments that are not judged until they come to an end. Depending on how long a movement was in space and time, swapping leads in the beginning is a fault that brings the overall movement score down but does not delete it entirely as “unsatisfactory.”

by the same token, if you have tension issues, those DO delete the entirety of the movement since it carries from moment to moment. Tension and anticipation are training issues that impact the entire movement - in the same way where the movement that took one step wide behind was only a 6.5. The horse is not on the rider’s aids in that case and that is deleterious to the score since it defeats the whole objective.

4 Likes
#55

You and me both sister! I literally said WOW! out loud.

I think that’s the source of any perceived disconnect; they don’t teach according to your book.

It killed me throughout the L program to have it drilled into me that there is no impulsion in the walk. Now I totally agree there is no suspension, but if there is no impulsion which in my Newtonian physics book means some movement generated by pulse of energy (think the U.S.S. Enterprise on “impulse power”) there would be no movement at all. I adopted an attitude of “cooperate and graduate” in the discussions, but on the written exam intentionally got it “wrong” and was subsequently dinged on my evaluation. Oh well.

I even discussed this with colleagues at work, real engineers, who to a man (I only asked men) claimed to have never heard the word impulsion but all went immediately to the same Star Trek context as did I!

#56

Believe me, matching comments to scores is a BIG part of the L program and it’s something we were assessed on at each.and.every evaluation.

I really think your disconnect is vocabulary-based; you are using a different one than the judge training program. Have you seen the glossary of judging terms?

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/2015_USDF_Glossary_.pdf

2 Likes
#57

No kidding. In our L program we watched videos of sales horses at a big name place in Europe for exactly that purpose. Yowza!

#58

Yes. But why then use raw score as a marker for the freestyle or as is headed our way, moving up.

That is my beef. It’s not about the qualifying score being about training if the horse is fancy enough to still score above that magic mark.

To me, properly means to the directives, not cranked in, and none of what has become what the sport internationally seems to be rallying against. In some cases.

I have ridden before many judges, including this one, And I feel like in 99% of the cases I was fairly judged. I have no beef about that.

#59

I’m really enjoying the videos and the judge’s commentary generally, but I have to say, I do find it a little disingenuous to claim that an average-moving horse performing a correct test could be competitive against the horses being used in this symposium. In particular, because the “average-mover” being used as an example to make the point is a apparently a GP horse doing a 2nd level test, which means its gaits are developed substantially beyond what they probably looked like when he was competing 2nd actively.

To put some numbers to it, suppose a test has 30 scored movements (counting the 2x coefficients twice, etc), a 6 mover doing a very accurate correct test is IME still very hard pressed to reach 65%, but lets say that’s what they get. Suppose an 8 mover gets all 7’s (due to adequate but not necessarily outstanding riding and training) and 4’s (due to serious errors in the test). How many 4’s would there have to be to tie the 6-mover’s 65%? Five (a lot).

[100(7(30-x)+4x)/300 = 65 if and only if x=5 – The generalization with n scores instead of 30 is x = n/6.]

5 Likes
#60

THIS this this. Thank you for putting some numbers behind it and saying it much more eloquently than I could.

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