New York Times article - USEF and Humble

[Hattie]

I have been doing rated shows since the early 70s (including being an AHSA official) and I have become so disheartened at the progressive decline of this sport. The sad thing is is that EM is just the type of the iceberg.

Showing used to be about competition to find the best horse, I honestly believe the decline in horsemanship started with the “big box” circuits. It has become a very expensive business where you pay the show management for your horse to be ridden in a class (that no one watches anymore) so that horse can either be marketed for more money or the trainer makes enormous training fees, daycare fees, etc.

I’m also tired of seeing the vanity ads in the hard copy Chronicle praising some BN show vets for the wonderful care of their horses when I know from first hand experiences of some horrid practices they do to keep the winner going. I heard of the calcium IV over 10 years ago during a major circuit that the show vet was offering. It had to be injected slowly or there was a slight chance of your horse’s heart stopping. I was appalled. This vet also performed nerve blocks so that the foot sore horses could continue going. OR the BNT trainer praises that I see on here and the hard print COTH - when he insists on alcohol blocks in the tails of his equitation horses and hunters to make them less distracting.

And I’m sorry - but why does show management have Juan Gamboa as the show vet after this Carolina Gold debacle? I feel nothing is going to change because it is the show
management and some of these guilty trainers running the USHJA and USEF. The money has become so large that these problems are just going to get worse.

One can only hope that USEF will finally listen and come up with major changes.
I know that USHJA will continue as is.

[vxf111]

I’m sorry to say I don’t think the “decline” of US H/J is anything new. We have the biggest black mark on our sport of any horse discipline. Forget the plasic surgery Arabians or the bleeding WP QHs or even the big lick walkers-- it was our industry that had the horse killers and by GOD if people showing now don’t even KNOW IT HAPPENED. We’ve always been the worst and it’s always been about the money and it makes me sick to my stomach to admit it-- but it’s true. We are the worst offenders, as a general discipline.

The heartening thing is that there are so many people who are out there who are so GOOD. People who love to ride and love horses. Owners, riders, and trainers. Pros and ammys alike who do it the RIGHT way. And there are more of us good folks, even if we’re peons, than the really bad bad offenders.

But the reality is that where money goes… so does the nasty behavior… and we’ve got an awful lot of both swirling around in our discipline and we have for a very long time. and our “governing” body is as guilty of following the money as anyone else.

[anmoro]

[QUOTE=gabby.gator;6744412]
at one of the small show associations I belong to/show at, their policy is that if you have a horse test positive for a banned substance, every. single. horse/rider associated with that barn/trainer is disqualified for that year, and one year following. as a result, every single one of us has to be very careful if one of the horses needs a bute, etc, and we’ve been known to break out the calculators to figure how much bute a horse could get within the allowable time before the next show time. horses are tested at random, but every one of us is accountable for the actions of anyone on the team. this is a non rated show series.[/QUOTE]

This is what more local associations should do! One of the several local associations here has a trainer that is quite famous for drugging her horses as well. A person did attempt to report her and no one would test her because of the cost. The person who stepped forward was ostracized from the association. It is disgusting in my opinion that things happen this way. You are correct that all associations should set tough boundaries, local or not and like many other posters mentioned, the rated series need to be very strict. While I hate to see people associated with guilty trainers punished, it is what we have to do to make an example.

[SnicklefritzG]

Buy an OTTB and learn how to ride it. Then there will be less need for all this drug crap

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=vxf111;6748087]
I’m sorry to say I don’t think the “decline” of US H/J is anything new. … it’s always been about the money and it makes me sick to my stomach to admit it-- but it’s true. We are the worst offenders, as a general discipline.

The heartening thing is that there are so many people who are out there who are so GOOD. People who love to ride and love horses. Owners, riders, and trainers. Pros and ammys alike who do it the RIGHT way. And there are more of us good folks, even if we’re peons, than the really bad bad offenders.

But the reality is that where money goes… so does the nasty behavior… and we’ve got an awful lot of both swirling around in our discipline and we have for a very long time. and our “governing” body is as guilty of following the money as anyone else.[/QUOTE]

I’ve got to say that it is REALLY unfair and biased to point to money as the source of the problem. Money is not bad – in fact money often allows one to purchase the horse that is suited to the job - the horse that does not need much maintenance - the horse that is properly trained - and therefore there is no need for drugs and shortcuts,

I would prefer to place the blame on the “I have to have it now” …“I have to win” …culture we have all created. I prefer to place the blame on those of us who stood by silently and did nothing when we knew what was going on.

The USEF and the USHJA are in fact a reflection of their members - they are our organizations - and until and unless we demand a change in how things are done it simply won’t happen. It won’t happen if we spend time pointing fingers at one another.

[2bayboys]

[QUOTE=anmoro;6748108]
This is what more local associations should do! One of the several local associations here has a trainer that is quite famous for drugging her horses as well. A person did attempt to report her and no one would test her because of the cost. The person who stepped forward was ostracized from the association. It is disgusting in my opinion that things happen this way. You are correct that all associations should set tough boundaries, local or not and like many other posters mentioned, the rated series need to be very strict. While I hate to see people associated with guilty trainers punished, it is what we have to do to make an example.[/QUOTE]

If this policy were implemented, I would simply sign for myself as trainer and I expect others would do the same thing. I don’t agree that the innocent should be punished along with the guilty.

[skydy]

Elizabeth Mandarino says the NYT “took the article off the front page and buried it”. Hmm… It’s right there in the Sports section online, not “buried” at all…

[vxf111]

I’m sorry but it is all about money. If there wasn’t so much money at the top it’d be less about quick results and shortcuts and getting it done regardless of the method. Ponies that lease for several thousand for ONE SHOW and you really think money isn’t at the root of this?!

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=2bayboys;6747423]
findeight, but how do you articulate in a rule that a horse may be given Robaxin for sore muscles but he may not be given Robaxin to make him quieter? I think that is the problem. So many legitimate meds have a sideline effect of making a horse “easier”.[/QUOTE]

I think that when a medication is being given in lieu of rest, it is no longer in the animal’s best interest.

A medication like an NSAID for an arthritic horse allows him to work which in many cases is actually beneficial to his long term health, just like it’s beneficial for your grandmother to go out walking. A medication like Adequan which is meant to prevent arthritic changes in the first place is beneficial.

I don’t believe Robaxin for sore muscles is a beneficial use for a show horse. If the muscles are that sore, the horse needs time off. IMHO.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=vxf111;6748384]
I’m sorry but it is all about money. If there wasn’t so much money at the top it’d be less about quick results and shortcuts and getting it done regardless of the method. Ponies that lease for several thousand for ONE SHOW and you really think money isn’t at the root of this?![/QUOTE]

Yes…I REALLY think that money is NOT the root of all problems. Sure there are problems … and sometimes money has a role AND sometimes it doesn’t. Does the amount of money in the sport make it difficult for those of us with less to compete at the top levels …sure nothing new about that. But there are just as many shortcuts at the local levelsand just as many abuses …

I’d rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is … rich poor and in between … than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is … they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors

[vxf111]

Money is the problem and solution. If the fines were proportional to the money at stake in “winning” there’d be a real disincentive. But as it stands, if cheating means a horse goes from $15,000 in value to $150,000 and the risk is a $300 fine and having somone else sign entry blanks for a while— how is there any disincentive to play dirty. People who would cheat care about prestige and cash- so that’s where the fines and public shaming have to hit them harder. Except… That might mean reduced revenue for USEF USHJA-- and therein lies a major problem.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=vxf111;6748433]
Money is the problem and solution. If the fines were proportional to the money at stake in “winning” there’d be a real disincentive. But as it stands, if cheating means a horse goes from $15,000 in value to $150,000 and the risk is a $300 fine and having somone else sign entry blanks for a while— how is there any disincentive to play dirty. People who would cheat care about prestige and cash- so that’s where the fines and public shaming have to hit them harder. Except… That might mean reduced revenue for USEF USHJA-- and therein lies a major problem.[/QUOTE]

We agreed that the penalties need to be substantial and, I think, that need to apply to EVEYONE associated with the horse - owner/rider/trainer/coach/groom – because that will hurt pocketbooks and business.

Where we do not agree that money - and that alone - prompts cheating. IME there are just as many people with no money looking for the quick win, prestige etc. Money does not make people like that - they just are

[Hattie]

[/QUOTE] I’d rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is … rich poor and in between … than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is … they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors[/QUOTE] by juststartingout

I don’t know if Mrs. Williams would agree…she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Ruby G. Weber;6747692]
I must agree with CB regarding Legend. I have administered Legend four hours out from a competition - to older, sore footed horses - on the advice of my vet. I would not classify this practice as off label.[/QUOTE]

As an aside, “off-label” means the use of a drug for a purpose not originally tested/approved or in a manner not originally tested/approved by the drug company. Many vets (and human doctors) routinely use particular drugs off-label. It is not necessarily bad or good per se. In some cases it is done because of rigorous or promising research, and in some cases it is done based on someone’s hunch.

If you read the package insert, 4 hours before a competition is decidedly off-label.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Hattie;6748489]
[/QUOTE] I’d rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is … rich poor and in between … than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is … they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors[/QUOTE] by juststartingout

I don’t know if Mrs. Williams would agree…she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.[/QUOTE]

ANd – she did the right thing and that has a satisfaction all of its own. The suit against her - if it is even filed - is frivolous and everyone knows that… my guess - she would agree and she would probably do it all over again

[PonyPenny]

Just look who is on the cover of Practical Horseman this month.

[EAY]

@juststartingout;6748421

Yes…I REALLY think that money is NOT the root of all problems. Sure there are problems … and sometimes money has a role AND sometimes it doesn’t. Does the amount of money in the sport make it difficult for those of us with less to compete at the top levels …sure nothing new about that. But there are just as many shortcuts at the local levelsand just as many abuses …

I don’t know where you are but in my area there are not nearly as many shortcuts and abuses at the local level, unless you count as abuse the ancient school ponies who SHOULD be allowed to show on some bute but who aren’t given anything to make them more comfortable. Local show people around here don’t have a clue about giving dex or IV magnesium to calm a horse. At the most you might see someone give their young horse a little ace. You might see a few people lunge before they get on but nothing like the LTD by grooms that you would see at a rated show.

Most of the abuse we see at our local shows involves poorly conditioned or marginally sound horses who shouldn’t be allowed off the farm and bad or scary riding. It could still be considered abuse but it is often a result of ignorance not willful disregard of both the rules and the animal’s welfare.

And yes money is a major factor that cannot be denied. If drugging a horse produces results in the ring that increases that horses value and if sales and commissions are big sources of income for trainers, then there’s a huge incentive to do what it takes if everyone else is doing the same.

[Hattie]

And a frivilous suit can and will cost her thousands of dollars - not much satisfaction in that. I agree with you about everyone upset with this trying to make a change, but HOW? Filing protests aren’t going to do it. How do you get USEF to make penalties harsh enough - it’s only recently that they have even acknowledged the Carolina Gold and Magnesium injections when this has been common knowledge for years.

I guess I’m just old and cynical.

[juststartingout]

So – there are all kinds of local circuits – many many horses at schooling showing on Ace because its safer – not sure who its safer for or how. The local rated shows where horses are drugged so that the overworked eq horses can function enough to get the juniors the points they need to qualify on courses that are lower than the required height and where some trainers negotiate who should win. The regional but not big time where all the same things take place.

I am not saying that money has no role – I am NOT naive…

I AM saying let’s stop dividing ourselves – let’s build a big tent and welcome everyone who is like minded – isn’t about time to stop dividing and work toward a common goal?

And with this I am done - at least for a bit

[annaelizabeth]

Well here would be my plan of attack.
No drugs (any at all) to be injected 12-24 hours before a show. If you horse needs anything between that time and competing then why the eff are you competing it.The answer is zero tollerance during that period. ZERO.
Now of course this isn’t the easiest to enforce but this is we’re YOU come in. You all have mobile phones attached to you, take a photo or video if you see something dodgy
Harsher penelties for those who break the rules, for everyone, owner, rider and trainer. Starting at $2000 then I would double it for each time caught so 4000, 8000, 16000. If one of those claims ignorance, well that’s your own fault. You should know what is happening with your horse. I don’t care if you trainer told you it was fine, educate yourself!!! I can’t go Kill someone and claim its ok because I was ignorant of the law. It’s your own responsibility.
Any positive tests, horse, rider and trainer unable to compete for 3 months, then 6, 9, 12, your out for good.

Oh and I just have to add, that bute and Advil analogy. Not the same, you choose to compete through the pain or take pain relief. The horse gets no choice in this. Your standing at the top of a very slippery slope.