New York Times article - USEF and Humble

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=fair judy;6750322]
… and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill’s wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be… " Ms. Hochschwender,
Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
Thank you, Tammy Tucker
tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"[/QUOTE]

That’s amazing I did not realize that the Acme Corporation also specialized in lawyers. I thought they just stuck to anvils and explosives.

[Horseymama]

[QUOTE=poltroon;6750544]
Part of the problem in setting appropriate fines is that there’s no single level that has equal pain, because it depends on your income and financial resources. I prefer nice long suspensions. I don’t see how a large fine benefits me as a fellow competitor.[/QUOTE]

I think it would benefit you and everyone as it would act as an extreme deterrent to having a horse test positive. If it has some serious financial hurt, then people would be less inclined to take chances with drugs and medications, or put their name on an entry blank for a horse that they may not be precisely sure what is getting.

I think it would “inspire” a lot more fairness in competition. (At least as far as the use of drugs and medications.) I don’t think that would be accomplished to such a degree with just a long suspension period.

I’m not sure what the amount per infraction should be. Enough to hurt most everyone. $15K sounded like a good amount, but maybe it should be more. I don’t think that even extremely wealthy people would want to have to pay that as a fine.

Just because it wouldn’t matter to some doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t help the sport.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Horseymama;6751979]
I think it would benefit you and everyone as it would act as an extreme deterrent to having a horse test positive. If it has some serious financial hurt, then people would be less inclined to take chances with drugs and medications, or put their name on an entry blank for a horse that they may not be precisely sure what is getting.

I think it would “inspire” a lot more fairness in competition. (At least as far as the use of drugs and medications.) I don’t think that would be accomplished to such a degree with just a long suspension period.

I’m not sure what the amount per infraction should be. Enough to hurt most everyone. $15K sounded like a good amount, but maybe it should be more. I don’t think that even extremely wealthy people would want to have to pay that as a fine.

Just because it wouldn’t matter to some doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t help the sport.[/QUOTE]

Just imagine how different that fine feels to someone who owns and shows a $150k horse and someone who owns a $1500 horse.

I think it’s fair to say that the person with the income that supports a $1500 horse would end up not paying the fine - and thus it’s effectively a lifetime suspension.

Making it a set length of time is more democratic and more even regardless of the infractor’s income or wealth. Kill all the points for the show year, make the suspension 6 months or longer.

[Horseymama]

[QUOTE=poltroon;6752006]
Just imagine how different that fine feels to someone who owns and shows a $150k horse and someone who owns a $1500 horse.

I think it’s fair to say that the person with the income that supports a $1500 horse would end up not paying the fine - and thus it’s effectively a lifetime suspension.

Making it a set length of time is more democratic and more even regardless of the infractor’s income or wealth. Kill all the points for the show year, make the suspension 6 months or longer.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with you that a long suspension, (I think a year or more), should happen for each infraction.

And I do also agree that a person with a $1500 horse and a limited budget is going to be hurt more by a large fine, but I don’t think they are the majority of the people out there trying to skirt the drug rules at rated shows!

Plus all they have to do is play by the rules and they don’t get a fine or a suspension!

I still think both are a better deterrent than one.

[MHM]

The people who propose mandatory long suspensions combined with huge fines must be the kind of people who never, ever, ever make mistakes. Or have their horses handled by people who never, ever, ever make mistakes.

For the other 99.98 percent of the human race, it sounds like a bit much.

For example, I know a very upstanding trainer who got suspended several years ago. She had to go in the hospital for a few days unexpectedly for a health problem. She recovered, got out of the hospital, and went to the next horse show as scheduled. One of the horses tested positive for trace amounts of a sedative. It turned out that while the trainer was in the hospital, the vet had stopped by to do some routine work on the horse and sedated it, but nobody remembered to mention it to the trainer when she got home from the hospital.

She had a spotless record from decades of showing, and she explained the circumstances to the hearing committee. IIRC, she got a two month suspension and a fine of something like $4,000. Ouch. That seemed plenty harsh enough to me.

I do think the idea of increased fines and suspensions for repeat offenders has merit, but to clobber somebody for a first offense is overkill. It will certainly be an effective lifetime suspension for many people who either can’t afford to pay a huge fine, or who will find some other enjoyable activity to pursue during a yearlong suspension.

[Lord_Helpus]

[ Originally Posted by fair judy[IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png)… and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill’s wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be… " Ms. Hochschwender,
Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
Thank you, Tammy Tucker
tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"

Tammy Tucker, you might want to review legal ethics. You are not the attorney of record in the NJ case to which you make reference. By implying that you are Ms. Mandinaro’s attorney, you are representing that you have the authority to subpoena people in that or any other case in NJ.

A review of the NJ Bar Association list of members shows that you are not licensed to practice in that state.

Perhaps Ms. Tucker should limit her statements to those which are fully accurate; and not make comments which will potentially subject her to an ethics review by the only Bar Association of which she is a member – the Virginia Bar.

Upon rereading the above post it seems more believable that Ms. Tucker, knowing her ethical responsibility and valuing her status as a member of the Virginia Bar Association, is not the person who wrote it.  I am willing to give Ms. Tucker the benefit of the doubt that she is a hard working, conscientious lawyer whose name has been used by Ms. Mandarino without her permission or knowledge.

[Soaponarope]

I agree leasing is a great option and often a lifesaver. However, doesn’t a horse have to qualify in the hunter divisions for Devon? Even if not, the practice of leasing a pre-qualified horse for Devon or pony finals is a part of this story.

[Pennywell_Bay]

J

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6752509]
Tammy Tucker, you might want to review legal ethics. You are not the attorney of record in the NJ case to which you make reference. By implying that you are Ms. Mandinaro’s attorney, you are representing that you have the authority to subpoena people in that or any other case in NJ.

A review of the NJ Bar Association list of members shows that you are not licensed to practice in that state.

Perhaps Ms. Tucker should limit her statements to those which are fully accurate; and not make comments which will potentially subject her to an ethics review by the only Bar Association of which she is a member – the Virginia Bar.

Upon rereading the above post it seems more believable that Ms. Tucker, knowing her ethical responsibility and valuing her status as a member of the Virginia Bar Association, is not the person who wrote it.  I am willing to give Ms. Tucker the benefit of the doubt that she is a hard working, conscientious lawyer whose name has been used by Ms. Mandarino without her permission or knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Wow! What would happen in a situation where a lawyer is misrepresenting herself ? To a legal layperson, it is bullying. In actuality, it appears a lie since she has no power in NJ.

[Limerick]

What is the case in New Jersey that folks are referring to??

[amberhill]

Ms. Tucker is one of the most ethical attorneys around and anything to the contrary is false. I have 9 attorneys in various states working together. Some known to the public and some unknown to the public. Mr. I. Blakely Johnstone III is one of my attorneys representing me in New Jersey.

What amazes me is that all of you missed the boat on an important fact. The USEF is the National Governing Body of the United States Olympic Committee for our sport. By temporarily suspending me, and all AHF athletes, they violated my due process rights under the Ted Stevens Olympic Athlete and Amateur Act as well as not following the USOC’s Due Process Check list.

Should the USEF, without a hearing, be allowed to temporarily suspend a trainer or any athletes. By definition of the act, all of my horses are athletes covered by the act.

When Mr Long lifted the suspension, he stated “The time for that temporary situation has now been lifted, as a result of the fact that we have not discovered anything that would lead us to believe that this could be adjudicated in the hearing process,”

Mr. Long would not have lifted the suspension and to the contrary the USEF would have enjoined in the protest if he thought there was any wrongdoing.

The temporary suspension, which is a violation of a USEF members rights, sets a troubling precedent for all members of USEF. Professional members are at risk of losing their livelihood based upon a single, powerful individual taking as true the allegations of an unsubstantiated protest, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that no rule violations have occurred and that no safety threat exists.

My lawyers are dealing with this issue separately and the USOC has been acting as an intermediary between my attorneys and the USEF as they were the ones who lit a fire under the USEF when, against USEF rules, they withheld the hearing transcripts from my attorneys and myself and assisted us in expediting the USEF to release the dismissal rulings.

When subpoena’s are issued, they will come from Mr. Johnstone III’s firm as has all other complaints served upon individuals.

[amberhill]

The Original and Amended Complaint (keep scrolling) can be viewed on the following link.

http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/userfiles/files/22012-12-20%20Elizabeth%20Mandarino%20Cert%20in%20Supp%20Of%20Cross%20MotionRMHP.pdf

[2bayboys]

[QUOTE=Limerick;6752897]
What is the case in New Jersey that folks are referring to??[/QUOTE]

Isn’t she suing the person who initiated the USEF protest against her?

Edited: apparently she is suing ratemyhorsepro and other unnamed horseshowdiva forum participants.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=carroal;6752682]
I agree leasing is a great option and often a lifesaver. However, doesn’t a horse have to qualify in the hunter divisions for Devon? Even if not, the practice of leasing a pre-qualified horse for Devon or pony finals is a part of this story.[/QUOTE]

The HORSE accumulates points to qualify for Devon in the pony hunters. Just the horse. Not the horse/rider combo. So someone else (or several other riders) can accumulate the points to qualify and a new rider can ride the horse at Devon. This happens very routinely for lots of reasons. Kid outgrows the horse mid-year, kid qualifies more ponies than she can take, pony goes out on long-term lease mid-year, pro-pilot racks up the points just so the pony can be leased out for Devon, pony is for sale and they want a pro jock to show it, etc.

[amberhill]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6752509]
Tammy Tucker, you might want to review legal ethics. You are not the attorney of record in the NJ case to which you make reference. By implying that you are Ms. Mandinaro’s attorney, you are representing that you have the authority to subpoena people in that or any other case in NJ.

Ms. Pam Mahoney, Are you accusing me of posing as an attorney? That is quite an accusation. As an attorney yourself you must know that is against the law. I suggest you retract your unfounded accusation immediately unless you have proof of the same. If anyone is unethical here, it is you!

A review of the NJ Bar Association list of members shows that you are not licensed to practice in that state.

Perhaps Ms. Tucker should limit her statements to those which are fully accurate; and not make comments which will potentially subject her to an ethics review by the only Bar Association of which she is a member – the Virginia Bar.

Upon rereading the above post it seems more believable that Ms. Tucker, knowing her ethical responsibility and valuing her status as a member of the Virginia Bar Association, is not the person who wrote it.  I am willing to give Ms. Tucker the benefit of the doubt that she is a hard working, conscientious lawyer whose name has been used by Ms. Mandarino without her permission or knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Ms. Pam Mahoney, Are you accusing me of posing as an attorney? You must know as an atty yourself that this is against the law. That is quite the accusation. I suggest you IMMEDIATELY retract the accusation unless you have proof to support your claim. You have been so advised.

[Laurierace]

Good Lord. Step one for getting yourself out of a hole. STOP DIGGING! By your own admission you gave an injection that “accidentally put the pony down” or something to that effect. That much we know as fact. The rest we will never know. It’s over and done with and the sooner you shut up the sooner you stop digging.

[amberhill]

Quite the opposite. I was grief stricken and thought I had hit the carotid artery until I found out that Humble had a lung condition unbeknownst to myself or my veterinarian. It was a normal reaction to have as a human being who loved her pony. The necropsy performed by New Bolton follows the track of the needle and I did not go anywhere near the carotid artery. Not that that made me feel any better about my loss as Emma and I were both grief stricken. We had the necropsy reviewed by 6 vets/pathologists, they came to the following conclusion that there was some underlying lung disease in Humble.

[2bayboys]

So please tell us what was in the syringe so we can all be sure that our beloved horses are not inadvertently killed by the injection of an otherwise safe substance. What if my horse has an undiagnosed lung condition? I don’t want him dropping dead when I give him his pre-show injections.

[Laurierace]

I do not believe that for a second, but threatening to sue everyone and their dog doesn’t change anything, it just makes you look guilty and keeps it foremost in our minds. Seriously, let it go.

[Limerick]

What was in the needle??

[BeeHoney]

In light of the aggressive legal pursuit (harassment?) of people even remotely connected to the case, I just have to mention that I have great admiration for Ms. Williams. I don’t know her, I’ve never met her, and I’ve never heard anything else about her, but I admire her for not being afraid to speak up when she saw something wrong happening. I think that without her protest and her eyewitness account, the incident in question might have been swept under the rug like other similar incidents that have occurred before it, and that the NYT article never could have been written. If people who write on bulletin boards and websites are being targeted by the person accused, then I can only speculate what Ms. Williams has had to deal with as a result of speaking up.

I’d like to think that most of us would would unhesitatingly speak up and/or file a protest if we saw someone breaking the rules, especially in an abusive or dangerous manner. However, the decision to speak up is complicated when doing so puts yourself at risk for harassment or an expensive lawsuit.