New York Times article - USEF and Humble

[LucyShow]

[QUOTE=Freebird!;6760836]
I like the above idea, but for a big show - and say, one that is longer then a day - how would one actually put it into practice? Besides the expense and man power it would take, when would you do the actual tests? After every class? When the horse gets registered? For a show lasting several weeks, how would go about testing then?

Personally, I think tests should be random, plus any suspicious looking gorses, along with the winners. I also think the show world needs to adopt the same practice as racetracks - shots are only to be given by a vet.[/QUOTE]

I don´t think you need to invent the wheel again. Just follow the FEI protocol, I believe there is both random and “placement” testprotocols. Friend of mine whom I groomed for on an FEI event got random tested. They asked for sample after the ride when she came out of the arena and the testguys followed all the way to the stables and did their thing there. Don´t know if that´s the normal way to do it but at least an example.

[MistyBlue]

[INDENT]The USEF is the emperor with no clothes.

Elizabeth Mandarino is not wearing pants, because her trousers ignite as quickly as she can put them on.

These two entities deserve each other.

But the USEF membership deserves a better USEF. We need to protect our children and our equines from the metaphorically pantsless. [/INDENT]

:yes:
Entire thing is sig-line-worthy.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=LucyShow;6761243]
I don´t think you need to invent the wheel again. Just follow the FEI protocol, I believe there is both random and “placement” testprotocols. Friend of mine whom I groomed for on an FEI event got random tested. They asked for sample after the ride when she came out of the arena and the testguys followed all the way to the stables and did their thing there. Don´t know if that´s the normal way to do it but at least an example.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly what they-USEF- do now. They get the winner and one at random as they exit the ring and sometimes will get you after your final jumping round as you exit the ring.

The issue is that if you are not in the ring, out of sight, out of mind. As in when they see the lab folk, some just last minute scratch and keep them in the barn. Far as I have seen, they have never random tested those last minute scratches…even ones that win over fences and fail to show up for the hack when those lab coats appear at the out gate even tho it cost them Champion. jeeesh, I remember one time there were 18 in my class, the coats showed up and 10 actually showed that particular jumping round-I did get a better ribbon then usual, and got tested.

There is also absolutely no procedure for handling a dead or collapsed for no apparent reason horse. We pay for a show vet, they should have to make an appearance ASAP, file a report and pull blood-that is not a huge financial burden on anybody. Also, if it is routinely required it does not single anybody out or assume any guilt-we know horses do die or collapse at shows with no nefarious intent.

I don’t even know if there are any statistics on how many horses do die or publically collapse for no apparent reason at USEF regulated shows. I don’t even know if you or a steward observing one collapse have to report it.

Any stewards on here know???

I keep adding the collapse thing because recently? Seem to be hearing of it in the schooling ring more often then before. Are there even any reporting requirements???

[vxf111]

Perhaps it’s just my PSU alum bias coming through, but all I could think about last night were how different governing organizations treat things. NCAA can’t WAIT to slap penalties on programs, appropriateness/legality/proportionality be damned. USEF will seemingly do anything it can NOT to catch violators and have to enforce its own penalties. There is something seriously broken with this system.

[fair_judy]

of course there are others who are using the same cocktails of medications. the fact is that, while some actually have an idea of what they might be doing, EM has NO CLUE. she is the worst case scenario, as evidenced by her vague “all the top trainers do this” comments repeatedly used to give her own ignorant practices credence. what does she do? go through the trash at top show barns and just randomly use every vial found?

abuse of any medication is bad enough. this is so random it is truly egregious. on their own many of these meds have merit under circumstances recommended…

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=findeight;6761382]
That is exactly what they-USEF- do now. They get the winner and one at random as they exit the ring and sometimes will get you after your final jumping round as you exit the ring.

The issue is that if you are not in the ring, out of sight, out of mind. As in when they see the lab folk, some just last minute scratch and keep them in the barn. Far as I have seen, they have never random tested those last minute scratches…even ones that win over fences and fail to show up for the hack when those lab coats appear at the out gate even tho it cost them Champion. jeeesh, I remember one time there were 18 in my class, the coats showed up and 10 actually showed that particular jumping round-I did get a better ribbon then usual, and got tested.

There is also absolutely no procedure for handling a dead or collapsed for no apparent reason horse. We pay for a show vet, they should have to make an appearance ASAP, file a report and pull blood-that is not a huge financial burden on anybody. Also, if it is routinely required it does not single anybody out or assume any guilt-we know horses do die or collapse at shows with no nefarious intent.

I don’t even know if there are any statistics on how many horses do die or publically collapse for no apparent reason at USEF regulated shows. I don’t even know if you or a steward observing one collapse have to report it.

Any stewards on here know???

I keep adding the collapse thing because recently? Seem to be hearing of it in the schooling ring more often then before. Are there even any reporting requirements???[/QUOTE]

In all my years of showing, I have NEVER seen the testers show up in “lab coats.” They are dressed like anyone else who is not riding, appropriate to to the weather. Usually you have to look hard to see the “cup on a stick” that they carry. They are NOT easily identifiable.

[gumshoe]

I was going to say the same thing! The cup-on-a-stick is usually behind their backs, too. Lab coats? Seriously?

[QUOTE=lauriep;6761444]
In all my years of showing, I have NEVER seen the testers show up in “lab coats.” They are dressed like anyone else who is not riding, appropriate to to the weather. Usually you have to look hard to see the “cup on a stick” that they carry. They are NOT easily identifiable.[/QUOTE]

[Anne_FS]

I didn’t think that was meant literally. findeight wrote, “As in when they see the lab folk, some just last minute scratch and keep them in the barn.” I figured that a lot of trainers definitely keep an eye out for them and when the “lab folk” show up word gets around to the needle wielders that they’re there.

[findeight]

It was figuratively speaking although I have seen the actual coats. Twice in 20 years. Have seen several with airport type IDS hanging around their necks too…how subtle:confused:.

But they are as obvious as if everyone of them was in a white coat and word flies around the barn the second they arrive on the property (sometimes before if it gets leaked). Nothing is going into the ring to be judged and risk being pulled if there are…issues. But getting them as they exit the ring with their number is, really, the only way to verify identity of horse and responsible trainer. Thats what makes really random testing difficult with 1500 to 2500 horses on the grounds +haul ins.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=vxf111;6761409]
Perhaps it’s just my PSU alum bias coming through, but all I could think about last night were how different governing organizations treat things. NCAA can’t WAIT to slap penalties on programs, appropriateness/legality/proportionality be damned. USEF will seemingly do anything it can NOT to catch violators and have to enforce its own penalties. There is something seriously broken with this system.[/QUOTE]

Interesting observation. On the flip-side, I went to SMU (the only NCAA football program to every receive the death penalty) and I feel slighted that PSU didn’t receive the same punishment for a far more egregious offense. That must be how a trainer who gets set down for a legitimate medication mix-up must feel watching EM continue to go to shows with meds lists miles long.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=lrp1106;6761185]
My favorite part of Amber Hill’s ENTIRE website, under the For Sale page (and I really hope I’m not misinterpreting this in some way):

“Where’s Waldo”'s height: 12.1 1/16

ONE. SIXTEENTH.

Can we please round at that point, Ms. Mandarino? Oh, I’m sorry, when asked my height I always say that I’m five foot, four inches, seven centimeters, and five millimeters, and six hundred twenty micrometers.

One-sixteenth.[/QUOTE]

Ponies are typically always measured with very precise fractions. It’s not that weird.

[Effie1221]

The video stated the USEF is considering a ban on ALL medications within 12 hours of competition. Is this true?

[vineyridge]

This, it has just occurred to me, is but another symptom of the USEF mentality that refuses to demand positive ID (chips and chip readers) of horses at shows. Same mentality that allows re-registration and different show records. Same mentality that doesn’t require passports with medication records. Trainers don’t want positive ID, so the USEF sits on its hands; trainers don’t want an effective D & M program, so there isn’t one. USHJA doesn’t have any segment of its governance devoted to D & M issues. Trainers and show managers cherry pick judges and there is no USEF or USHJA discussion or program to prevent it. Apparently the show managers as well are just delighted with things as they are. They really don’t have to do very much and don’t, and their bottom lines benefit. If the show managers would stand up for change, and if the trainers would stand up for change, there would be change.

USEF, I believe, has become even more corrupt than AHSA was when it was the NGB. At least Alan Balch was moving in very positive directions before the merger–witness the pony measurement brouhaha. The measurement blitz hasn’t been done since, has it?

Thank you, David O’Connor. And especially thank you for promoting a known user of Dr. Feelgoods in High Performance eventing.

If the USEF is considering a 12 hour ban, IIRC that is still less than the FEI has in place.

[Lord_Helpus]

The “dropping to the ground” thing is not new. Several years ago at WIHS a junior hunter dropped to the ground after being given a shot. It was assumed to have been a shot of Magnesium.

A vet was called and the horse was finally able to rise and walk back to its stall.

AND it was shown in the junior hunters that day!!!

There is SO much wrong with this scenario that my mind boggles:

1. Giving the Shot
2. Incorrectly
3. A vet attending the horse, yet not being obligated to report this incident to the USEF
4. And, the horse showing that day!!

My mind was so blown that I kept questioning the person who told me. She saw it all – She was braiding a horse in the next aisle over – in the very early morning hours (c. 4 - 5am) and, being on a stool she could see over into the stalls in back of the one she was in, plus she could hear everything that was going on.

While Horse Show vets may be obligated to file reports on incidents such as these, they are not on duty during the night.

If the real truth needs to come out, there needs to be a hotline number which grooms and braiders can call, with the understanding their identity will not be revealed. And there should be rewards offered for such information that can be proven at a hearing.

Aren’t there whistleblower laws which protect people who see corruption and turn people in? Why can’t the USEF create such a scenario?

Oh, wait, I forgot… The USEF is comprised of these very same people who might have the whistle blown on their illegal practices… No wonder the system is set up to make it hard to protest professionals and then punish them with slaps on the hand when they are found guilty.

Perhaps the USEF membership should be able to elect zone representatives to the USEF protest committee. That way the rank and file can ensure that the people hearing the protests will give out appropriate fines and penalties. If the membership is still not satisfied, after a 2 year term, they can elect another representative to speak for them in the hearings. And, just maybe, professionals should not be allowed to be named to this committee.

Hmmmmmm…

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Effie1221;6761665]
The video stated the USEF is considering a ban on ALL medications within 12 hours of competition. Is this true?[/QUOTE]

…what video???

Problem with the 12 hour ban is how would they enforce it? And would not protect against overmedicating outside the 12 hours. We really don’t know what killed Humble and never will but it may have been cumulative overmedicating and/or drug interaction, not a shot that could actually have been Legend 2 hours out.

[adhock]

I like the hotline idea but I would be afraid that by the time any incident was reported and acted on, it would be too late. I, too, know about the WIHS incident but have also witnessed similar situations at Indoors–including in the pony ring where a large pony almost fell in the hack! It later collapsed in its stall but, while there was lots of eye-rolling and whispering, no one stepped up. I spoke with the mother who owned the horse and she didn’t want to upset the applecart with her trainer. It’s certainly not limited to the one incident at Devon, it’s just that it was witnessed by someone who tried to take action and then generated the scrutiny of The New York Times.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=findeight;6761695]
…what video???

Problem with the 12 hour ban is how would they enforce it? And would not protect against overmedicating outside the 12 hours. We really don’t know what killed Humble and never will but it may have been cumulative overmedicating and/or drug interaction, not a shot that could actually have been Legend 2 hours out.[/QUOTE]

The video that accompanied the Times article.

[adhock]

I like the hotline idea but I would be afraid that by the time any incident was reported and acted on, it would be too late. I, too, know about the WIHS incident but have also witnessed similar situations at Indoors–including in the pony ring where a large pony almost fell in the hack! It later collapsed in its stall but, while there was lots of eye-rolling and whispering, no one stepped up. I spoke with the mother who owned the horse and she didn’t want to upset the applecart with her trainer. It’s certainly not limited to the one incident at Devon, it’s just that it was witnessed by someone who tried to take action and then generated the scrutiny of The New York Times.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;6761651]
Interesting observation. On the flip-side, I went to SMU (the only NCAA football program to every receive the death penalty) and I feel slighted that PSU didn’t receive the same punishment for a far more egregious offense. That must be how a trainer who gets set down for a legitimate medication mix-up must feel watching EM continue to go to shows with meds lists miles long.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know anything about the SMU incident so I’m not going to comment on it.

[Horseymama]

@vineyridge;6761673

This, it has just occurred to me, is but another symptom of the USEF mentality that refuses to demand positive ID (chips and chip readers) of horses at shows. Same mentality that allows re-registration and different show records. Same mentality that doesn’t require passports with medication records. Trainers don’t want positive ID, so the USEF sits on its hands; trainers don’t want an effective D & M program, so there isn’t one. USHJA doesn’t have any segment of its governance devoted to D & M issues. Trainers and show managers cherry pick judges and there is no USEF or USHJA discussion or program to prevent it. Apparently the show managers as well are just delighted with things as they are. They really don’t have to do very much and don’t, and their bottom lines benefit. If the show managers would stand up for change, and if the trainers would stand up for change, there would be change.

The show managers would never stand up for change, why would they? The USEF (and AHSA) was created to protect horse show managers. Why else would the mileage rule still be in place? Horse shows are a monopoly. Managers make obscene amounts of money. Don’t kid yourselves. The USEF is not here to promote fairness in competition or horsemanship or welfare of our equine partners. They want you to think they do, but (as we have all seen very clearly with this debacle), they really don’t.

The USEF only exists so that horse show managers can make as much money as possible without contest. The USEF is the biggest joke in the industry and are the root cause of this whole controversy. The next NYT article should be on the immoral and positively horrendous behavior of our NGB.