[QUOTE=vineyridge;6762273]
I fail to understand why my post was removed. It didn’t discuss or make any allegations against the trainer in question. It merely asked if the David Wright on the public NYTimes video was the same as David Q Wright in Tennessee. I can’t see videos, you see.
What’s wrong with my post?[/QUOTE]
Yes it is the same David Wright.
So you have a guy like David, a legitimate trainer, taking a stand for what is wrong with this sport and willing to stick his neck out and someone wants his head on a plate? Geez, this is a tough crowd.
There have been so many productive thoughts and ideas thrown out throughout this entire thread. We can only hope that someone, anyone, at the USEF takes some sort of notice.
EM has left NJ and returned to FL ! Wonder if she comes back for trial on the 11th …
[QUOTE=findeight;6761382]
That is exactly what they-USEF- do now. They get the winner and one at random as they exit the ring and sometimes will get you after your final jumping round as you exit the ring.
The issue is that if you are not in the ring, out of sight, out of mind. As in when they see the lab folk, some just last minute scratch and keep them in the barn. Far as I have seen, they have never random tested those last minute scratches…even ones that win over fences and fail to show up for the hack when those lab coats appear at the out gate even tho it cost them Champion. jeeesh, I remember one time there were 18 in my class, the coats showed up and 10 actually showed that particular jumping round-I did get a better ribbon then usual, and got tested.
???[/QUOTE]
They do not test the winner and one other random horse/pony.
Sometimes they test all second place horses in a particular ring on a particular day. It’s up to the testers.
And I’ve never been able to ID a tester by their attire. The last two times I had a horse tested a person who was dressed like me in jeans and a tee shirt walked over as we were leaving the ring and told me my horse was selected for testing.
In one case she followed me back to the van, in the other case she asked us to accompany her to her truck.
If a horse has been withdrawn from competition it can still be tested within a 24 hours period prior of the class it was entered in. Ponies entered ( but not actually showing) for the purpose of a measurement can be tested.
Many horses do not do the hack so nothing overtly suspicious there.
[QUOTE=Salome;6762314]
So you have a guy like David, a legitimate trainer, taking a stand for what is wrong with this sport and willing to stick his neck out and someone wants his head on a plate? Geez, this is a tough crowd.
There have been so many productive thoughts and ideas thrown out throughout this entire thread. We can only hope that someone, anyone, at the USEF takes some sort of notice.[/QUOTE]
he didn’t really stick his neck out but just said what everyone expected him to say. The same thing Julie Winkle or GM parroted as if they didn’t know what is going on. [edit]
[QUOTE=S Originally Posted by amberhill[IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png)Ms. Pam Mahoney, Are you accusing me of posing as an attorney? You must know as an atty yourself that this is against the law. That is quite the accusation. I suggest you IMMEDIATELY retract the accusation unless you have proof to support your claim. You have been so advised.
:eek: [/QUOTE]
LOL. Yes, it was QUITE the post. I did not bother to tell her that it is NOT illegal to act as your own attorney. A lot of people do; it is called “In Pro Per”.
What IS illegal is putting yourself forward as an attorney, to another party who then relies on that status. It is called fraud.
In this case the old adage applies:
“Anyone who acts as their own attorney has a fool for a client.”
What I don’t understand is why the protest system is set up the way it is for things like alleged drug violations.
Granted it governs athlete doping in humans, but the US Anti-Doping Agency (which manages all Olympic and Olympic-Development athletes, even in off seasons (“out of competition testing”)) has an Play Clean ANONYMOUS HOT LINE and even provides an anonymous report box online where you can submit your report in your pajamas at 2 AM if you’d like (http://www.usada.org/playclean).
No need to pay a fee, no need to be publicly identified (or shamed!), etc.
Yes, some may argue such a system promotes dubious reporting of others out of jealousy or for some competitive edge, but you’d think Olympic athletes would have the same problems (and they haven’t), no?
Why is USEF so afraid to set up an anonymous “Play Clean” hotline? Or online report submission box? Or fee-free reporting system? Or provide members with a drug reference phone line to consult on whether something is okay (or not) (http://www.usada.org/drugline/)? Or an ombudsman (http://www.usada.org/usoc-athlete-ombudsman/)?
Do you realize how this looks to the outside? To report another competitor of a violation you have to PAY A FEE. Your name is public. Talk about a system that exists to protect the inner circle.
(Then again, this is the same organization that gave a slap on the wrist to a top hunter trainer for drug infractions and then just put his picture on the cover of their organizational magazine (IN THE SAME YEAR). Did you forget? You can refresh your memory here: http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2012/FebAdministrativePenalties.pdf
So maybe that’s all you need to know about this club of our’s).
[QUOTE=PINE TREE FARM SC;6762367]
They do not test the winner and one other random horse/pony.
Sometimes they test all second place horses in a particular ring on a particular day. It’s up to the testers.
And I’ve never been able to ID a tester by their attire. The last two times I had a horse tested a person who was dressed like me in jeans and a tee shirt walked over as we were leaving the ring and told me my horse was selected for testing.
In one case she followed me back to the van, in the other case she asked us to accompany her to her truck.
If a horse has been withdrawn from competition it can still be tested within a 24 hours period prior of the class it was entered in. Ponies entered ( but not actually showing) for the purpose of a measurement can be tested.
Many horses do not do the hack so nothing overtly suspicious there.[/QUOTE]
I can only speak to what I have observed or participated in by being tested. YMMV.
Think I was first tested circa 1972 on the old AHSA Open circuits on the west coast when California required it far before the AHSA did squat.
And, the last 4 or 5 times under USEF? They were obvious and pulled the winner and one at random from the flats and a couple at random after jumping a round. I am aware it is supposedly totally random but…
I have never seen or heard of anything tested anywhere but walking out of the ring…and ammies and kids usually do hack if it makes a difference in Championship points and they have a halfway decent mover. Particularly when they were dressed and in the warm up talking to you when the testers showed up and their horse suddenly “tied up” or showed colic symptoms.
I can imagine it would be impossible to do anything back in the barns with a late scratch when Pookie, Pokey and Fluffy are all 16.2 bay WBs with one sock, no brand and no back number at that point in time…with grooms who don’t know what back number belongs to which horse. Or, darn, it just got sent out on trial.
It’s not so simple and many are ahead of the curve evading it. Some even sit on committees judging others for doing the same thing.
Vineyridge, could you PM me with that trainer’s name?
Salome, I think the point is that there might be a lot more heads out there that belong on plates (speaking generally–not in regards to that person). The problem (as others have pointed out) isn’t just ONE single horrific situation involving the death of a pony, or even a few people blatantly using testable illegal drugs/combinations of drugs in their horses. I think that the average trainer doesn’t want to risk positive drug tests, and why should they?
The problem is the widespread abuse of “legal” medications (dex, banamine, robaxin, etc.) whereby as a routine practice some (many?) trainers administer an excessive array of medically unnecessary and potentially harmful “legal” drugs to perfectly healthy horses as standard show prep because those medications might have a calming side effect–and also happen to be “legal.”
And, worse yet, the widespread use of and experimentation with dangerous “untestable” drugs such as GABA (now testable) and IV magnesium. There is no rule against/punishment for accidentally killing a horse on show grounds with an injection of an untestable mystery substance. There is no consequence to giving mystery meds to a horse to the point that it falls down in the warm up ring. Not only does the USEF do nothing, but owners, riders and parents for whatever reason are failing to speak out when they witness these things. Are people afraid to “upset the apple cart” and be ostracized by their barn/trainer? Are they afraid of being sued for speaking out? Have they come to think that drugging horses is such standard practice that there is no point speaking out? Or do they genuinely believe that if a substance can’t be tested for it is “ok”?
Drug testing is a good thing, but I don’t think it is the complete answer. And while I agree that the rules have to change (and many people on this thread and the other related thread have made excellent suggestions), I also think that the most helpful thing that could be done would be a change in judging. If judges penalized horses that appeared sedated, exhausted, or overly slow and rewarded horses with natural pace and expression that would do a lot to discourage the dangerous use of sedating substances.
[QUOTE=Winston the Corgi;6762496]
What I don’t understand is why the protest system is set up the way it is for things like alleged drug violations.
Granted it governs athlete doping in humans, but the US Anti-Doping Agency (which manages all Olympic and Olympic-Development athletes, even in off seasons (“out of competition testing”)) has an Play Clean ANONYMOUS HOT LINE and even provides an anonymous report box online where you can submit your report in your pajamas at 2 AM if you’d like (http://www.usada.org/playclean).
No need to pay a fee, no need to be publicly identified (or shamed!), etc.
Yes, some may argue such a system promotes dubious reporting of others out of jealousy or for some competitive edge, but you’d think Olympic athletes would have the same problems (and they haven’t), no?
Why is USEF so afraid to set up an anonymous “Play Clean” hotline? Or online report submission box? Or fee-free reporting system? Or provide members with a drug reference phone line to consult on whether something is okay (or not) (http://www.usada.org/drugline/)? Or an ombudsman (http://www.usada.org/usoc-athlete-ombudsman/)?
Do you realize how this looks to the outside? To report another competitor of a violation you have to PAY A FEE. Your name is public. Talk about a system that exists to protect the inner circle.
(Then again, this is the same organization that gave a slap on the wrist to a top hunter trainer for drug infractions and then just put his picture on the cover of their organizational magazine (IN THE SAME YEAR). Did you forget? You can refresh your memory here: http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2012/FebAdministrativePenalties.pdf
So maybe that’s all you need to know about this club of our’s).[/QUOTE]
USEF does have a free drug line you can call and ask “is this ok?”.
And unless Scott Stewart has multiple infractions (I have know idea) I wouldn’t burn him at the stake for a single occurrence of bute overdose. Sometimes a true mistake does happen and bute is the least of our worries when it comes to drugging problems! At least he put himself down as trainer on the horse. So many BNTs don’t, to avoid it hurting them if they get caught! Very sad. Yes, the owner is the trainer of that horse and the BNT is just riding (sarcasm).
BeeHony,
I agree that drug testing is not the whole answer. It is closing the proverbial barn door after the horse is out. 
Thinking about other areas with drug problems, I am reminded of the teen campaign “Just Say NO [to drugs]”. It brought drugs “out of the closet” and into the mainstream. Parents and kids could talk about drugs and kids would sign pledges to not use. The drug problem was attacked proactively.
The USEF needs to be proactive, too. Bring drugging out of the closet. Run a campaign acknowledging that drugs are used and that is wrong. Turn the issue around so that a mother is not afraid to say something when her kid’s pony falls down in the warm up area.
Talk about drugs. Put up posters in the stabling area. Get the riders on the side of riding a clean horse. [Try to] run a campaign in which owners/riders sign a pledge to only own/ride drug free horses.
Making drugging bad has not worked (for many reasons…). Why not make riding a drug free horse a positive goal for people to achieve?
If course the testing needs to continue and punishments need to be made harsher. But we need to make the issue one that people talk about, not sweep under the rug.
“Give me a child [horseman] until the age of ten, and I will tell you what kind of man [horseman] he will be.”
It’s not JUST the drugging :no:.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6762887]
BeeHony,
I agree that drug testing is not the whole answer. It is closing the proverbial barn door after the horse is out.
Thinking about other areas with drug problems, I am reminded of the teen campaign “Just Say NO [to drugs]”. It brought drugs “out of the closet” and into the mainstream. Parents and kids could talk about drugs and kids would sign pledges to not use. The drug problem was attacked proactively.
The USEF needs to be proactive, too. Bring drugging out of the closet. Run a campaign acknowledging that drugs are used and that is wrong. Turn the issue around so that a mother is not afraid to say something when her kid’s pony falls down in the warm up area.
Talk about drugs. Put up posters in the stabling area. Get the riders on the side of riding a clean horse. [Try to] run a campaign in which owners/riders sign a pledge to only own/ride drug free horses.
Making drugging bad has not worked (for many reasons…). Why not make riding a drug free horse a positive goal for people to achieve?
If course the testing needs to continue and punishments need to be made harsher. But we need to make the issue one that people talk about, not sweep under the rug.[/QUOTE]
Except being a product of the “Just say no” “this is your brain on drugs” and D.A.R.E generation I can assure you that the drugs are more rampant NOW then before they started the campaign…Yes it made parents feel like they could talk to their kids about it BUT it some how made drugs NOT a big deal…I’m not sure how but I speak the truth!!!
[QUOTE=nlk;6762935]
Except being a product of the “Just say no” “this is your brain on drugs” and D.A.R.E generation I can assure you that the drugs are more rampant NOW then before they started the campaign…Yes it made parents feel like they could talk to their kids about it BUT it some how made drugs NOT a big deal…I’m not sure how but I speak the truth!!![/QUOTE]
Yeah, well that had to do (also) with the international drug trade being profitable to the US government and it helped out some private firms who got contracts to build and run jails. Ironically, the “Just Say No” campaign was Nancy Reagan’s. If I’m not mistaken, her husband headed an administration that made some international deals regarding drugs entering the US market.
Anywho. Whatever the USEF Insiders decide to do, they need to recognized two things (and doing so will make their choosing policies a much easier pill to swallow):
What we* did and didn’t do in the past to keep our sport clean painted us into this corner. We all own a part of it, so the best thing to do, for PR purposes and otherwise, is to show up now and take a visibly proactive stance on correcting the problem.
There needs to be a response that the USEF membership and the NYT-reading public can appreciate as aggressive and well-aimed. Half-a$$ed won’t do it anymore.
And worse, a response that looks like propping up the status quo will make the USEF look like a good ol’ boys club, not merely in general, but additionally in the face of some horrendous stuff.
The John Long-type response isn’t quite good enough. I’d summarize his strategy as A) We do care about drugging horses, B) Look! We did some great stuff with GABA (Which misses the point a bit, IMO), and C) It’s a complicated problem, you people just. wouldn’t.understand. Leave it to us. But we are on it. That reeks to me of elitism… when the elites have just demonstrably failed.
I think reorganizing Zone committees such that they give the rank-and-file membership some genuine power in them would be a good-looking start.
it’s hopeless because when people are winning they don’t care how. They bast in their “accomplishments” and label everyone else who points out how drugged the horses or ponies look as jealous. The trainer with the winning horse has a happy client who will be more inclined to buy more horses. The client is happy to believe that his child or himself has become an overnight success rider with the help of a new trainer. When the horse starts to break down because of the drug abuse and overpreparation, they can sell, or lease another one. Has anyone noticed how well horses go for potential buyers? First horse show is always a success but give a couple of weeks and things start to deteriorate. It is so fun to watch and, predictable.
Matter of public record (although a little hard to dig up). Summer of 2011, 2 horses, 2 shows, 2 positives, a few weeks apart. He did a sort of mea culpa and blamed a newish road barn employee who was fired. But it really got everybody’s attention.
Hard to remember anybody else of that stature coming up with two positives in that time frame and, IMO, somewhat unfortunate timing he has two magazine covers the same year as he served the suspension (IIRC he was off spring 2012 on on the covers fall 2012).
Part of the problem is USEF moves glacially slow for whatever reason (time off real job, leaving the barn, buying stagecoach tickets etc). The positive comes in pretty quick but the hearing takes at least 6 months to schedual, sometimes gets postponed and any diciplinary action like a suspension is not immediate to give them time to make arrangements for their clients. Typically be nearly a year between the violation and the actual time off.
Anyway, it’s kind of hard for the rank and file to follow sometimes. Or even be aware of.
Edit to correct the misinfomation about the 2 positives at 2 shows with 2 horses-it was 3 positives at 3 shows with 3 horses in 2011.
[QUOTE=flyracing;6762863]
And unless Scott Stewart has multiple infractions (I have know idea) I wouldn’t burn him at the stake for a single occurrence of bute overdose. Sometimes a true mistake does happen and bute is the least of our worries when it comes to drugging problems! At least he put himself down as trainer on the horse. So many BNTs don’t, to avoid it hurting them if they get caught! Very sad. Yes, the owner is the trainer of that horse and the BNT is just riding (sarcasm).[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI - reported in Oct 2011 - caught at Upperville June 2011 for Firocoxib over the limit, Bute and Arquel. Reported in Oct. 2011 - caught at I Love NY July 2011 for Bute and Banamine combination. Reported in Feb. 2012 - caught at Hampton Classic August 2011 for Bute over the limit. Only suspended for one week for one “infraction”. Fined for all three.
Not trying to crucify Scott in particular, but this is a classic example of what the USEF needs to fix. Tested and caught 3 times in 3 months and only suspended for one month.
[QUOTE=Tackpud;6763446]
…Not trying to crucify Scott in particular, but this is a classic example of what the USEF needs to fix. Tested and caught 3 times in 3 months and only suspended for one month.[/QUOTE]
See, I do try to keep up and did not realize he had 3, June, July and August, only one simple bute over the limit. A month off in spring and 2 magazine covers in the fall.
Jeesh, how many would you have to have to get into any serious trouble or suffer any dents in your reputation???
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;6762799]
Salome, I think the point is that there might be a lot more heads out there that belong on plates (speaking generally–not in regards to that person). <SNIP>[/QUOTE]
Preachin’ to the choir.
it’s hopeless because when people are winning they don’t care how. They bast in their “accomplishments” and label everyone else who points out how drugged the horses or ponies look as jealous. The trainer with the winning horse has a happy client who will be more inclined to buy more horses. The client is happy to believe that his child or himself has become an overnight success rider with the help of a new trainer. When the horse starts to break down because of the drug abuse and overpreparation, they can sell, or lease another one. Has anyone noticed how well horses go for potential buyers? First horse show is always a success but give a couple of weeks and things start to deteriorate. It is so fun to watch and, predictable.
There it is.
How many of you have received a horse with their “prep directions”? When hearing of the huge money sales have any layed wagers on how many shows until that horse decided not to participate any longer? How many of the most winning horses ever go on to continue winning the same way with new riders or actually get new riders? Don Stewart’s horse Lyle is one of the few I can think of that actually gets a new rider almost every year and continues to win at indoors.
Did a little research:
2008: 17 shows: Caitlin Hope
Reserve Jr. Hunter Finals
Champ @ Capital Challenge
Won Emerging Pro Challenge
Champ @ Harrisburg
Champ @ Washington
2009: 17 shows: Abby O’Mara
Champ/Reserve @ 12 of 17 shows
Top ten Jr. Hunter Finals
Won Handy Hunter Challenge @ Capital Challenge
Champ @ Harrisburg
Grand Jr. Hunter Champ @ Harrisburg
Champ @ Washington
2010: 10 shows: Abby O’Mara
2011: no shows
2012: 17 shows: Hasbrouck Donovan
Champ/Reserve @ 14 shows
Champ @ Washington
Champ @ National
Picked this horse specifically because it continues to win with very few shows and different riders.
How many of you have watched a trip where one of the top horses was a little up for the first round, leaves for a bit, then comes back half an hour later and lays it down? I know, I know the guys lunged it. I guess we all were born yesterday.
Everybody in the industry knows what is going on, who is doing it, what they are using. Nobody is crazy enough to say anything about it for fear of the consequences. Everybody knows that too.
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