[QUOTE=Limerick;6770810]
I’ve tried googling And looking at USEF’s info for the answer to this but I thought you couldn’t give Banamine and Robaxin at the same time at a horse show.[/QUOTE]
It’s permissable under the current rule to give robaxin (not an nsaid) in conjunction with an single nsaid (banamine, bute, arquel, etc).
[QUOTE=mvp;6770114]
With all due respect, if you don’t get it, then you need to read the D&M rules. It is indeed illegal now to stack two NSAIDS. The others? Not illegal, but also not all of those drugs are used to do the same thing.
I understand the first-glance surprise and outrage at a show pony with a huge list of meds. The L A Times did the same thing, complete with pictures of syringes, for race horses.
But if you know what you are doing/what all those do, it’s a “meh.” There’s a legitimate issue with drugging horses for nefarious purposes out there. The blanket objection doesn’t help those trying to make the rules better and more sensitive.[/QUOTE]
“Meh”, to you, perhaps.
“Ack!” to others.
Yeah, I thought I read that. Horrible. If PETA exposed this problem, oh boy would there be big noise.
Unless EM gave both Arquel & Banamine, there was no “stacking” of NSAID’s. EM said that the Arquel was on the list for another pony even though it looks like it was there for Humble as well. Obviously she’s very credible :lol: She also says the necropsy proves she didn’t give it. According to the list, Humble would have gotten it on Wednesday. The necropsy was performed the following Sunday - would it have shown up after that many days?
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;6770977]
“Meh”, to you, perhaps.
“Ack!” to others.[/QUOTE]
I was on the fence about this, but the more I think about it the more I say “Ack!” too. The thing about horses is that they are actually very trainable. You don’t need to drug them to perform.
Re: the poster who mentioned the strict rules in eventing, and the great participant adherence to the rules: I think that’s awesome. In eventing, it’s pretty rare to find a horse selling for extraordinary amounts of money due to its performance. As well, they are not rewarded for going around quietly (Thank goodness!) So…no real incentive to drug the crap out of the horses for sedation purposes, and no gigantic money classes at stake. Last summer there was a 3 Star at our local horse park; lots (I mean lots) of those horses had names like “500OBO” and “Freetoagoodhome.” Great eventers (both equine and human) come from all sorts of backrounds; generally, the upper level hunters are bred in the purple. Lots of money at stake for all owners/trainers/riders involved.
Eventing (except for FEI level) are the same rules that hunters show under with regard to drug rules. Exact same.
If eventing were to grow in popularity to the size of hunter shows, I suspect you would start to see the prices of horses go up as well. In that regard it is about supply and demand. Only difference is that with horses, anyone can set the value of said horse. There are no guidelines, much like baseball teams “buying” players. A team (owner) can pay what it wants for X. If enough express interest the price goes up. If no one wants it, the price drops.
I hope Eventing stays where it is. Right now it is sane, affordable, teaches horsemanship, and does not require super $$$ to buy clothes or horses. God forbid it ever becomes the circus the H/J world is.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of EM, but I do feel the need to jump in here and have my say on some of these medications. Some of you look at Adequan and Legend and think, “OMG, all of these injections to keep a lame pony going!!” I would have to say this: Adequan and Legend are very expensive and safe medications given by caring owners to keep their animals sound! Many of the owners gladly spend money in an effort to keep their beloved animals confortable. So when I look at that overal medications list, I also say, “meh” when it comes to Adequan and Legend. Do I believe that the trainer in question gave that pony Legend in the early am that caused it to drop dead- nope. Just my opinion.
[QUOTE=Jsalem;6776455]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of EM, but I do feel the need to jump in here and have my say on some of these medications. Some of you look at Adequan and Legend and think, “OMG, all of these injections to keep a lame pony going!!” I would have to say this: Adequan and Legend are very expensive and safe medications given by caring owners to keep their animals sound! Many of the owners gladly spend money in an effort to keep their beloved animals confortable. So when I look at that overal medications list, I also say, “meh” when it comes to Adequan and Legend. Do I believe that the trainer in question gave that pony Legend in the early am that caused it to drop dead- nope. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone is saying Adequan and Legend are “bad” and shouldn’t be used in competition horses, or that their use means the horse is lame and not fit to compete. And unlike competing a horse on NSAIDs, they will not mask lameness in a sore horse but actually do have some benefit in treating the underlying cause of soreness and therefore making the horse more sound. I think that the Adequan and Legend only entered the debate in the first place because EM said that Legend is what was in the syringe that the pony was injected with before he dropped dead. Although the question was raised whether there was any need (or benefit) for a horse or pony to get Legend right before competition. I don’t think anyone is saying Adequan and Legend should be banned when used as directed.
On the other hand, do all of EM’s ponies have severe allergies AND arthritis? Why are we giving hormone shots to geldings?
If you’ll read some of the posts and if you’ll read the newspaper article it really sensationalizes the “number of injections!” the horses get. Many of those injections are perfectly innocent and are, in fact, efforts at responsible preservation of the horse’s soundness.
Consider people. Just how many routine injections are human athletes likely to receive without bringing the whole issue of drugging to the fore?
I have no idea what UL human competitors get routinely in the way of injections and other medications related to competition. Anyone here know?
Are there accepted versions of Legend, Adequan, Gastrogard, etc that are given to human athletes to keep them sound for competition?
Jsalem, I hear ya, but the whole situation has gotten out of hand. I don’t think any reasonable person has a problem with people giving horses things like Legend and Adequan according to the manufacturers recommendations. But seeing people give those medications in amounts well in excess of what has been tested for safety or recommended by the manufacturer kind of bothers me. Especially when it is in conjunction with five other meds in a healthy young horse. And even more when there is a whole string of healthy young horses and ponies getting similar concoctions of NSAIDs, muscle relaxers, steroids, etc. as a routine matter of course for “show prep.”
Every time a medication is given, there are risks. A medication could be mixed up and something dangerous or a wrong dose could be accidentally given, there could be an allergic or other reaction, there could be side effects to the medication itself, there could be an intra-arterial injection, there could be infection or abscess or tissue damage, or there could be a clot of the jugular vein… and so on. A simple accidental intra-arterial injection (even though that’s not what this thread is about) could be lethal. So no, I’m not “meh” about medicating horses unnecessarily. As an owner, I’d definitely not be “meh” about an inexperienced or untrained person giving IV injections to my horses.
I feel like it has gotten to be a cultural thing where people use medications on their horses a little too casually and think that using as many injectables as possible is a normal way to achieve a competitive advantage. I get it that some vets are supporting this practice by “recommending” these things, but I think that there is a lot of money at stake and there are certain vets out there who are simply trying to provide what their customers want as a business tactic, not because it is what is best for the horses.
Viney, I completely agree with you. If all these injections are so “innocent” is it something you would ever do to yourself? Would you ever give your spouse or child five different medications including steroids and muscle relaxers before they went to a sporting competition? I get it that horses aren’t people, but I think it is a helpful rule of thumb to think about what treatment YOU would want for yourself.
[QUOTE=Jsalem;6776455]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of EM, but I do feel the need to jump in here and have my say on some of these medications. Some of you look at Adequan and Legend and think, “OMG, all of these injections to keep a lame pony going!!” I would have to say this: Adequan and Legend are very expensive and safe medications given by caring owners to keep their animals sound! Many of the owners gladly spend money in an effort to keep their beloved animals confortable. So when I look at that overal medications list, I also say, “meh” when it comes to Adequan and Legend. Do I believe that the trainer in question gave that pony Legend in the early am that caused it to drop dead- nope. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I have used Legend and Adequan myself and I think they are beneficial when used correctly. I am very glad to have them compared to the Bad Old Days when all we had for arthritis was bute. That said, I’ve never given them at a show grounds and I don’t think it would cause any hardship to the horses if they could not be given those injections the same day they are competing.
My offer still stands: A Phat Check and the Nobel Prize in Medicine to the guy who cures equine osteoarthritis.
Until then, we are going to have to limp along trying to slow it’s progression and mask pain. It doesn’t help when people don’t learn how different drugs work in the management of OA and its pain.
[QUOTE=DMK;6754698]
Making an issue out of adequan/legend given the day of/day before the show is to hugely miss the point, and probably doesn’t help the real issue by creating a nice little diversion (seriously, pat yourselves on the backs). Also while that daily meds list was impressive… guess what? It was legal under the therapeutic rule. What point is there in trashing a single person (who has plenty of other issues and problems that need addressing) over a practice which you may not like, but is part of the legally accepted medications in the rule. The “fix” for THAT problem is to become a member and lobby for change. If you aren’t doing either of those things then you are having a faulkneresque moment (Sound. Fury. Signifying nothing). Route of administration of said drugs? Really? Who cares unless that route creates a very specific condition that violates the rules (i.e., oral vs. IV Mg).
On the other hand, the inability of the organization to address the death of an animal at one of their sanctioned shows? Problem. The breadth of the therapeutic rule and what can be given and when? Problem. Who can sign an entry blank? Problem. The scope of illegal drugs and ability to test them? Problem. [edit][/QUOTE]
This.
I think that the thing the Times article did very well was pointing out that it’s a problem that USEF can’t test for some dangerous substances and lacks the ability to require certain tests when horse dies on the show grounds, WITHOUT establishing that anything illegal had been done to this particular pony.
I think the issues raised by this article–and the larger ongoing discussion about doping in horses–remain valid even if Ms. Mandarino was merely the victim of bad luck and not some malevolent agent. Is it appropriate that the therapeutic substances rules allow so many medications to be administered? Do we need to develop a better test or enforcement mechanism to prevent dangerous drugs like magnesium from becoming commonplace? Does USEF need the authority to investigate suspicious horse deaths on show grounds? How do we address the fact that the use of therapeutic and nontherapeutic drugs have become so routine?
I think the reality is that there are serious, prevalent problems that pose health risks to horses and riders. And they’re not easy to solve. Demonizing one person involved in a suspicious incident does not really address those underlying problems.
[INDENT]My offer still stands: A Phat Check and the Nobel Prize in Medicine to the guy who cures equine osteoarthritis.
Until then, we are going to have to limp along trying to slow it’s progression and mask pain. It doesn’t help when people don’t learn how different drugs work in the management of OA and its pain. [/INDENT]
I’ll send my address later for the check and the prize, although doubtful they’d give it for this reason. :winkgrin:
Ready?
And yep, I already know about there being a loss of excess income when horses jump less and get time off. So I repeat: These aren’t machines. They’re not sports equipment. Don’t anyone whine about how much they love their animals that they can’t be arsed to give time off, less drugging, a healthy weight or bother with conditioning rides.
So my answer would be: Stop causing OA and it won’t be such a problem. I have no problems with show horses being treated like show horses…but the current definition of show ready needs to be thrown out. Fat, unfit, drugged and sore is no athlete. It’s overused and poorly cared for sports equipment.
JMHO. :winkgrin:
All the conditioning in the world isn’t going to keep OA at bay if the horse has a genetic predisposition for it and/or has some sort of accident that catalyzes its start.
Not saying that some show horses aren’t fat, but that there is more to it than just that.
Agreed with Peggy. My 17 y/o mare has OA in several joints and she is both fit and shows maybe 6 times a year. I’m 21 and have OA in several joints too…
And you are a troll for digging up this old thread.
[QUOTE=SamanthaLawtonisPurePony;]
—Quote (Originally by Purepony)—
The necropsy (that bit we’ve been privy to) says that the Humble had some sort of lung infection and that no illegal amounts of medications were ascertained. I’m sure that’s all accurate.
But when an animal receives an injection and immediately drops to the ground in convulsions followed shortly by death, it is nearly impossible for the average person not to draw the obvious conclusion.
USEF will be dealing with drug issues forever. In the instance of an equine death at a show, it would make sense that the show and USEF have the right to investigate in whatever manner they choose. The owners/trainers rights could be suspended in this situation leaving our governing body to determine if the death was from natural causes or from something else.
Death is a part of life, but in a situation such as occurred at Devon, it would be helpful to all the parties involved to place the onus of discovery on USEF, rather than allowing speculation to run wild because of something the owner or trainer might not think to do.
—End Quote—
Well, I’m pretty sure we know this is Samantha Lawton. Since you have so much interest in this case, we may as well call you out now.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! Nothing like beating a dead horse 7 months later. Though, I think many people would agree that the more people that know about this story, the better! 
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