niedersuss vs. albion vs. schleese

[Ambrey]

I have a Neidersuss Symphonie for my pony and a Schleese Infinity for my big guy.

The Neidersuss does fit well on a fairly narrow, V shape with a defined wither. I can’t imagine it being a great fit on my mutton withered beer barrel. It is too small for me so I can’t say for sure about the seat, but it feels pretty deep and has a pretty steep rise to the pommel, and the leg seems to be in a good position without hefty thigh blocks. The leather is very soft- it is smooth and not the textured schrumpf of the Schleese, but much nicer than some inexpensive saddles I’ve seen. The flaps did fade where the stirrup leathers rub, though.

My mom, who the saddle is actually for, says it’s the most comfortable saddle she’s ever been in.

My schleese is set very wide for my xxxw guy. It’s very nice- the quality is fantastic. I didn’t get it new, though, so there are some things I’d change slightly if I were getting one custom for myself. I do like that now that Smokey is getting fitter I can have it re fit to him.

The prices aren’t really comparable either new or used. New the Neidersuss go in the mid 2k range and the Schleese in the 3-4k range. Used the Neidersuss go from $800-$1500 and the Schleese tend to be $2k and up unless you can find an older one.

[buck22]

[QUOTE=NewbieEventer;4025087]

Buck22, can you describe what you didn’t like about the Scleese saddles you sat in?[/QUOTE]
I went on a schleese spree at one point, sitting in as many as I could, I don’t recall the names or models, but older ones I sat in I found hard and the leather not to my taste, but the fit didn’t bother me. Not bad saddles at all, I just wasn’t impressed for all the hoopla I read on them.

The newer ones, and I don’t know quite why this is, but I felt tipped up forward onto my pubic bone, sitting on my fork, with my lower back hollowed… fairly consistent to the half dozen I sat in. It was immediately and intensely uncomfortable, and quite the phenomenon that it was across the board. I joked with a friend that I could do a blind ‘sit test’ and pick out the Schleese :D. Except the wave I think, that was the one I sat in and was comfortable, but did also feel rather trapped in it… I sat in it and felt gripped and locked. Though I greatly liked the saddles themselves, the features and construction and leather. I wish I could like a Schleese, I so desperately want to take advantage when I see a deal on one.:no:

[anchorsaway]

I had an Albion Legend 5000K that I disliked quite a bit but I have a feeling that it was the suede seat and knee rolls that I didn’t like.

However, I do like the Original Comfort! We have an older schoolie that wears one and it’s a lovely saddle. The saddle fitter we use is also an Albion rep(but works on/will recommend anything and brings all types of different brands to fittings) and she is wonderful to deal with. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Albion’s customer service.

[GreekDressageQueen]

Interesting thread…

What all of these posts indicate is that people are just as different as horses’ backs and what saddle is best really depends on your individuality. I have a Niedersuss and even though it is “off the rack” it fits me and my horse perfectly. It is incredibly comfortable for me and my horse goes very well in it. He is 1/4 Irish Draught so he has wider shoulders and a low wither and the medium tree fits perfectly. I find the saddle very comfortable and easy to sit. My horse has the most bouncy trot (yes, I am willing to bet he has THE MOST bouncy trot ever of any horse) and I can actually sit his trot in this saddle.

I used to ride a horse who had a custom made Schleese and it was the MOST uncomfortable saddle I have ever ridden in. If I didn’t have my full seats on, I couldn’t ride in it because it would rub me raw and hurt my womanly parts! It also wouldn’t let me position my legs but would force my leg in a position - didn’t like that. The seat was so hard and the leather was too stiff.

Another friend of mine has a custom made Schleese and she had major customer service problems and had to have her saddle sent back a lot and it still was never “quite right.”

I have never ridden in an Albion but I do like the looks of them. There is one for sale on eBay I want but the tree is medium-narrow and probably won’t fit my boy.

My previous show horse had a Prestige Top Dressage “Appaloosa” model (only available in Europe or bought used in the US) and that was a LOVELY saddle. Very soft, very nice quality, oh so lovely but it didn’t fit my new horse at all.

[NewbieEventer]

[QUOTE=asterix;4025344]
I have an Albion SL – my saddle fitter said the SLK is a much wider twist, and I needed a narrower twist. I love it! got it used for a very good price.
My horses are high withers, wide trees, fairly flat backs.

The Custom Steffen Peters fit them well but it was WAY too wide for me…[/QUOTE]

What exactly is the “twist” of a saddle? My vague understanding is that it’s the width of the seat between the rider’s thighs, and it has nothing to do with fit for the horse…is that correct? What are the consequences of riding in a saddle with a twist that’s too wide? too narrow? I wonder why wider twist (SLK) would be more expensive and seemingly advertised as a better performance saddle?

[DinkDunk]

I have an Albion K2 Genesis and I love it, as does my horse.

I purchased it used from M&M Tack Shop in Raleigh and the saddle fitter there was very helpful with any questions I had.

My horse is mostly TB - med withers (no shark fins) and fairly flat back, although he did have issues with some saddles sitting downhill. He is quite short backed. The panels on my Albion are rather soft and wide with excellent spine clearance.

I was looking at 3 different models and she told me -

Albion Comfort - Wide Twist
Albion SLK - Narrow Twist and Deep Seat
Albion K2 - Narrower feeling, good for Taller Rider.

[quietann]

I rode in all 3 when I was looking. The Schleeses (and similar Rooslis) threw me forward no matter what the seat side. Neidersusses were hard as a rock and not right on my mare. I ended up with a used Albion Style, which I love. It is a tiny bit too small in the seat but it’s very comfortable, which was the most important thing because of my left side being so messed up, from calf to shoulder. Oddly enough, I’d tried the Original Comfort and really did not like it at all.

I was told that when looking for used Albions, do NOT trust the stamped tree size, because for whatever reason, the company has not always been consistent with trees. E.g. the 17.5" MW Style I tried was much much too wide for my horse (and me), while the 17" MW I bought fits us both fine.

The fit issues were definitely with me rather than my mare, who has TB withers and a Morgan back.

[buck22]

[QUOTE=NewbieEventer;4026744]
What exactly is the “twist” of a saddle? My vague understanding is that it’s the width of the seat between the rider’s thighs, and it has nothing to do with fit for the horse…is that correct? What are the consequences of riding in a saddle with a twist that’s too wide? too narrow? I wonder why wider twist (SLK) would be more expensive and seemingly advertised as a better performance saddle?[/QUOTE]

a very nice lady gave me this link :D: http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Other_Pages/saddle_termgy/saddle_term.htm

I’m just starting to get a grasp on these things m’self, so hopefully someone will correct me… the twist is the part of the saddle under your crotch. The wider the twist, the further apart your legs are spread. I personally find both narrow twists and medium to wide twists comfortable. I have round fleshy thighs, a narrow twist allows my legs to drape as if dangling down because my crotch is being propped up on a narrow surface and the contacting areas under my immediate thigh is scooped out and gives a spot for my thighs to be. Its comfortable for me in a saddle that doesn’t tilt my pelvis forward, and/or has a slow rise to the pommel and/or the seat isn’t too small for me, otherwise I’m dumped on my pubic bone or am squashed up against the pommel and it hurts right quick.

A saddle I’ve been enjoying lately has a twist that is pretty durn wide, but I like it too. When I ride, my thighs are really spread apart and I really feel the incredibly huge roundness of my horse… but I feel very “in” the saddle and “with” my horse… closer to bareback. It feels as if my thighbones are being stretched out of my hip sockets, but I like it because it forces me to relax that whole lower area… In a narrow twist, I can hide tension in my thigh and seat because I can grip a bit there… if the manure hits the fan, I can “fake it” in a narrow twist.

In a wide twist, I can squeeze, but cannot grip without tensing my whole back and shoudlers and neck (which naturally goes right down my arms and my horse soon gets pissed) :). The wide twist is forcing me to relax, and so I’ve been finding that as I ride I start riding with a quieter upper body… I’m becoming more still and engaging my core a bit more because I can feel it all so much better… and because I have to if I want to stay upright :). But, I’ve been having lower back pain too since riding this saddle… I’m not sure it is the saddle, but am pretty sure.

I jump back and forth between a couple of saddles anyhow… after a while of riding in a narrow twist, I get on a wide one and go ‘aaaahhhhh, I can relax’ , conversely, I get on a narrow one after some time and go "aaaaaah, my leg can just dangle’.:lol:

Twists, I believe, do affect saddle fit for the horse too… Its kinda hard not too when you’re talking about the tree, because both you and your horse have to share this one thing… the tree is the foundation for everything.

To my knowledge, a wide twist is generally found wide trees, generally also on hoop style, or U shaped trees… naturally a tree that us U shaped for the horse’s benefit would have a portion that is wider on top too… but not always. There are manufacturers, I believe, that can make a U shaped tree and a narrow twist, but then somewhere, something is built up to create that narrow twist. I assume anyhow… someone please feel free to correct me.

I love this site and reading her blog: http://saddle-fitting-for-smarties.advancedsaddlefit.com/

I hope this helps

[JanDinWA]

Spirig does make the saddles for the SRS and the riders really like them (according to one of the riders). Albion does the SRS Kollection equipment which doesn’t include saddles.

I have had Schleese saddles for 12+ years and really like them. The newer trees are carbon fiber, older ones are nylon or fiberglass (can’t remember which) and wood. All but the wood can be adjusted many times and if the wood ones have the correct gullet plate, they are somewhat adjustable. I’ve had saddle trees adjusted many times for my horses, so it’s not just a few times deal. One saddle went from a very wide Lipizzan to a medium Morgan with no problem, so it’s not just little adjustments either. I have 2 old JES models, a Wave, and a semi-custom.

We have the fitters from Canada come two or three times a year for fittings. They are very good and tend to spend a week or so covering an area of the country. The Schleese web site has the schedule for the local fitters. If one is coming to your area you can request a fitting. The local fitters for Schleese can run the gamut in ability so if you want to try them, get recommendations first.

[BelAirDRSG]

BEWARE OF SCHLEESE SADDLES!

SCHLEESE SADDLES ARE NOT A PAIN FREE SADDLE !!
SCHLEESE SADDLES ARE NOT SADDLES FOR LIFE .
Please read this before you waste your money on a Schleese saddle. (Use Links to See Photos of Injury to my Horse:()

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5eTwEwl4gzQRk5QWnk5REhyVkM4QlJiVVBlZUNzRUcwWFNv

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5eTwEwl4gzQWFNrMW4yY08wNUx1ODZzTTBQaGVpdml5dzFV

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5eTwEwl4gzQWEY4ZmlIR0RRT1NpRko1TjhtZlVsdzlMSUVJ

I strongly feel that the Scheelse saddle is a total rip off. I paid $ 5,335.55 for a new custom fit, Infinitiy 11 Schleese saddle.
Within 6 months of owning this saddle I have incurred a vet bill of $135.00 plus $300.00 in treatment costs for my horse’s severe pain that resulted from this saddle and the Schleese saddle fitter, Karen from Vista, Ca.

Dr Michael Reuben ,D.C.,CVCP Assessment;
"Somatic Joint Dysfunction-multiple levels, cervical, thoracic and lumbosacral , with hypertonic muscle involvement . Cause ; Poor saddle fit. "

The vet concurs with these findings adding; neck muscles and spine muscles "hollowed out "

Treatment ; 7 weeks of rest and no riding
Karen was insensitive for the pain and vet costs that she caused my horse due to her inability to fit my horse properly. Her lack in professionalism was appalling, she refused to refund the fitting fees.

I contacted Karen and the customer service at Schleese. I was told by both parties not to expect any response as there is nothing they can do. For $5,355.55 this is service I received, along with no riding for 7 weeks.:mad:

In addition to their extremely poor and apathetic response . I had another saddle fitter evaluate my original Steffen Peters saddle which was deemed a perfect fit.
This company should be ashamed, the deceit of their over rated saddles along with their incompetent saddle fitters. Please spare your horse the pain !

[rjr]

I have owned all three, and these are among the most popular brands at my barn. Most of the Niedersuss saddles in the U.S. are the “symphony” model. The nice thing about that is that the same model has been available, with hardly any changes for many years. So, if you like it and find out what size you need, you can often find a used model on-line and know exactly what you are getting. They are much less expensive than the other two brands. The quality is not as good as far as comfort, style and appearance, but they last forever. I think of Niedersus as the least expensive of the “good” quality brands. They tend to fit a large variety of horses. I have found them expecially good for warmbloods with large shoulders where other brands tend to ride forward on the shoulders. As mentioned previously, the seats have no padding and are “hard” – people tend to either love or hate them. (Actually, I hate mine, but I keep it around anyway because it fits so many horses, and all my horses like it. So it is my emergency saddle if I need to send one of my custom saddles out for repairs, or if I need something for a new horse.)

Albions are quite good quality. There are several models out there - recently most are “SLK” or “Platinum” . Both come in both a narrow twist and a wide twist seat. They look almost identical but feel very different (to the rider). Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to tell from the serial number which is which, and many people do not know what theirs is. This can be a real pain in the ^%&#$ (litterally) if shopping for a used model. the seats tend to be well padded, and soft leather, which most people find quite comfy. The downside to this is that they don’t last as well. I would say the low durability is an issue if you are looking at a > 10 year old model, or if you are planning to use it on several horses per day, or riding in all sorts of weather. If you are an average amature, riding one horse, in decent weather or indoors, then it will be fine. There are also some options in the trees for a high head or regular head. The high head models can be great for TB’s and horses that are narrow or hard to fit due to big whithers. All models tend to have a lot of room in the flocking, so can customized to your horse quite a bit without having an officially “adjustable” tree. A few people in our barn have had trouble with them riding forward on the shoulders of really big-shouldered, big-moving warmbloods.

Schleese has so many models, and so many customizable options on each model that it is hard to make any general statements about them. They are top of the line for both quality and cutom options, and are priced accodingly. If you are able to pay top dollar for a new, custom saddle, AND you are able to get to a Schleese rep, then this might be the way to go – especially if you and/or your horse are very picky or hard to fit. On the other hand, if you are happy with just about anything you try, then don’t waste all the bucks on fancy custom work. All recent schleeses have adjustable trees. So if you have a saddle fitter nearby with a press to adjust the tree, this can be an advantage. However, my experience is that they are not as fully and wonderfully adjustable as the sales people lead you to believe. They cannot always adjust to fit every horse. So, if the fit isn’t perfect, don’t buy it and assume that it can be made perfect.

[rjr]

[QUOTE=NewbieEventer;4026744]
What exactly is the “twist” of a saddle? My vague understanding is that it’s the width of the seat between the rider’s thighs, and it has nothing to do with fit for the horse…is that correct? What are the consequences of riding in a saddle with a twist that’s too wide? too narrow? I wonder why wider twist (SLK) would be more expensive and seemingly advertised as a better performance saddle?[/QUOTE]

Yes, “twist” is the width of the seat in the front/middle section - around your pubic bone and just behind the pubic bone. Too narrow, and you feel like you are being jabbed in your privates, too wide and you feel like you are being ripped apart (OK, those are really extreme examples - most of the time, it just feels a little narrower or wider.).

As for the Albion models: I’m not too sure about the SL, but I know that the SLK and many other Albion models come in both “wide twist” and “narrow twist” versions. The narrow twist on albions is often quite narrow, and uncomfortable for a lot of people. But (as I metioned in another post), it often isn’t obvious which style you have until you actually get into the saddle. So, you usually just have to try out the individual saddle you are considering.

IN THEORY the twist is completely separate from the width of the tree. The twist only affects the top 2 - 3" of the seat, and the horse can’t feel it at all. However, the rider IS affected by the width of the tree and the width of the horse – which will affect how far apart your thighs and knees are. This in turn will affect how your your pelvis interacts with the “twist” area of the saddle. So, you will probably have a general preference for a wide vs narrow twist based on your own anatomy. But, the particulars of excatly how a certain saddle fits you may be affected by the horse size and by the tree size.

[Countrywood]

I would look at used Hennigs, really nice, well balanced well made (new are expensive but if can afford new, go for it) I owned a Schleese and sold t, A well made saddle but HEAVY like a western saddle to carry, and sits far up over horse’s back. Albion, i’ve ridden in a few, pretty nice, imo a workmanlike no frills dressage saddle, the Honda Accord of saddles which is a good thing, one model of Albion is adjustable tree (their most expensive model)

[happilyretired]

I used to ride in an Albion SLK and it was a very comfortable saddle. But- as my horse developed it got too narrow. Be advised that for older Albions the only way to have the tree adjusted is to send it back to the factory (which is in the UK!) - or at least that’s what I was told.
I now ride in Schleese saddles and am very pleased with them. I have the Obrigado for two of my wide guys and an Infinity for another, smaller gelding. The shoulder relief for the horses is great and has made a big difference. The balance for the rider is different in the various models so its important to try different models on your horse to see which one works best for the two of you. If you are in an area that Schleese services regularly customer service is very good but be advised that if you’re out of a standard service area it can be a real pain to get a Schleese trained fitter to come to you.
Also – with regards to the Schleese adjustable tree I was told by Schleese that the trees can be adjusted up to 25-30 times (not just a couple times as an earlier poster said). Of course if the basic shape of the panels is wrong and/or the saddle is too long no amount of adjustment will make the saddle work.

[Forte]

Personally I’m a huge Albion fan. I have one for my young horse and I’m in the process of ordering another one for my older horse. I love that they have so many different trees and options to choose from, different leathers, different flap lengths, standard versus narrow seat. My youngster is very weird back shape so I went with a fully custom Albion Revelation Couture. When Albion says “custom”, they really mean custom. As in, the tree is actually made from scratch to the horses back. My fitter took a zillion measurements to have the saddle made. It fits me and my horse like a glove. My only regret is that I got the standard seat and now I wished I had gone for the narrow. My saddle is built on the “SLK” tree which is a wood spring tree. It can be adjusted at the barn using a press. My saddle has been adjusted once and it took about 15 minutes. My older horse is a more standard size and shape so I am getting her the SLK Royale. It’s just like the SLK Ultima but with a softer calfskin leather. All the Albion saddles can also be made with “bling” if you’re into crystals, patent, colored piping or that sort of thing.

I have ridden in quite a few Schleese saddles. I really liked some of the older CHB models but I find the newer ones a bit hard on my hips. I’ve heard both horror and success stories with Schleese. A lot seems to depend on the fitter.

[DownYonder]

I also have had Albion, Neidersuss, and Schleese (in addition to Rembrandt, Kieffer, Euro-Riding, etc).

I rather liked all of them, depending on the horse I had at the time, but my favorite is the Schleese Infinity II, followed by the Neidersuss. I am in fact still using the Schleese I bought about 4 years ago for my current horse - the swept-back tree points and WIDE channel made a huge difference for him in back and shoulder comfort. I do have to have it refitted every 9-10 months or so (every 4-5 months in the beginning when he was coming back into work after a long layoff), but my fitter is excellent and services our area pretty regularly. I figure it is money well spent, since it helps keep my horse comfortable.

[halt]

I am going through a hard time with my current gelding, who is a big TB. He is not a difficult fit but for various and sundry reasons none of the saddles I’ve had professionally fitted (or appraised) by saddle fitters has worked for him. We’ve tried the following models (dressage): Kieffer, Stubben, Ainsley and an old Passier.

Presently, we are riding in a dear friend’s Niedersuss Symphonie and he goes very well in it. It doesn’t fit me well (the seat is too small) but it is a great saddle.

[Dressagelvr]

It all just depends on the shape of your horse’s back and that of your pelvis/hips.

I personally wouldn’t buy a Schleese, but that stems from a bad experience I had with them years ago. Let’s just say that I don’t believe in the company.

Hennigs are excellent saddles, so consider them too. Used saddles of any brand should be shopped carefully because even broken trees aren’t always easily detected.

[SarahandSam]

I have a Niedersuss Symphonie. My horse is wide QH shoulders, high wither, and it fits okay–it’s just a shade narrower than my previous Niedersuss, which was labeled a medium but fit more like a MW. I got this one from my trainer who bought it off another client, and swapped her my old Niedersuss, which is a different model. There are a lot of them at my barn. They all seem to fit slightly differently; my friend tried mine on her TB with wide shoulders, and it was too narrow for him. It’s the only dressage saddle I’ve owned or really ridden in, so I have no basis for comparison, but the quality on mine is nice and I don’t find it uncomfortable.