Nippy gelding!

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ve had the mare - but never heard of the tail swishing to the face being a deliberate thing - except it hurts!
Who agrees it is deliberate?

John Lyons is the one who gave me ‘permission’ to almost kill a horse for three seconds, then continue as normal.
I don’t shout at horse’s (or dogs) though…just not me. If I have to I do lower my voice and sound growly.

Tom Dorrance has a tape out also, he uses a stiff stick to bop the neck of the horse every time he leaned over to nip,
but the horse did not know where it came from.

Fortunately, my current mare was born polite - she wouldn’t dream of being pushy and I had her since birth.

[SLedbetter]

I have a 4 year old mini who is nippy. Have done the backing up, etc., he KNOWS it’s bad, but does it anyway. Still, occasionally, he will try to sneak a nip in, and the second I turn around, he’s already backing up. It’s become a game. I believe, being a pony, he will always test me to see if he gets to be boss that day, he always loses. He’s never truly bitten anyone, and I hope he never does.
My farrier gave me a great idea, when Bean starts to get too mouthy when she’s working on him, she blows ‘Raspberries’ in his face. He gets very offended. Quits trying to get in your face. So, in close quarters the Raspberries work. We always have to laugh because the look on his face is total disgust. But it works.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

@Foxtrot's

I’ve had the mare - but never heard of the tail swishing to the face being a deliberate thing - except it hurts!
Who agrees it is deliberate?

It definitely can be deliberate. The horse laughing at you is a good give away. Why else in winter, when there are no flies to use as an excuse, and you’ve been grooming for 10+ minutes with not a flinch out of that tail, and suddenly when you go to pick that hoof, and whack!!! right in the face the tail goes… and the horse is basically saying

[Sparrowette]

@4LeafCloverFarm

It definitely can be deliberate. The horse laughing at you is a good give away. Why else in winter, when there are no flies to use as an excuse, and you’ve been grooming for 10+ minutes with not a flinch out of that tail, and suddenly when you go to pick that hoof, and whack!!! right in the face the tail goes… and the horse is basically saying

Yup. This. ^^^

[Wanderosa]

Yup. Obviously beating on the horse like a lunatic isn’t good. But when you watch how horses let each other know when a boundary has been overstepped? It’s quick and decisive. I ride a gelding that is very sensitive and hates being saddled/girthed. I give him some leaway for ears back and the occasional teeth clicking. Anything else elicits a correction. My reasoning is that I’m super careful tacking him. I’m almost certain I’m not hurting him and the fussing is mostly drama. I’m the only one at my daughter’s barn that the Shetland will allow saddle him without rearing. Someone hurt that pony badly in the past so I know I must be gentle if he is ok with me saddling him. ) The first few times I snapped the shank and growled. Now, all I have to do is give him a stern look and growl “nooooo” and his ears immediately perk forward and he acts like butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth.

[Scribbler]

@4LeafCloverFarm

It definitely can be deliberate. The horse laughing at you is a good give away. Why else in winter, when there are no flies to use as an excuse, and you’ve been grooming for 10+ minutes with not a flinch out of that tail, and suddenly when you go to pick that hoof, and whack!!! right in the face the tail goes… and the horse is basically saying

Yeah, my mare isn’t a big swisher. She will be standing there eating hay and as I walk past, she will give exactly one swish that gets me in the face.

She will also make all sorts of faces behind your back. You can hear teeth clacking and you swing round and she is ears up, big smile on her face. You can stand down the barn aisle and watch her do it to other people.

This same horse, in trick training and with little kids giving treats, is extremely gentle. She has never nipped me or anyone when she is in clicker training mode and very happy.

[Spyder]

I had a ‘new’ gelding who opened his mouth, ears back, and came for me. I immediately socked him in the mouth. Never happened again. Instant new respect. Never had any problems with him – ever – again. Not long after, after he demonstrated what a love he was – he’s wrap his head/ neck around me and hug me. He was just testing.

[Angela_Freda]

Yo came at me once and only once truly intending to bite… I bit him immediately, HARD, on the nose [the look on his face was priceless] and in 24 years he never, ever tried to bite me again.

[candyappy]

@buck22

I was going to chime in with the John Lyons method, but I see its already got a fan club!

OP, it works. Swift and aggressive response from you (JL would call and “attack”) - when he thinks about biting. Act aggressively anywhere but his upper neck and head (I make a ruckus with available objects so dramatically the horse backs up in terror, I personally don’t strike the horse, but biting is a huge act of aggression, striking back is understandable in that instant). Then followed up quickly with a rub on the forehead to reassure friendship.

John Lyons used to say, as he was rubbing the horse, “You see, I’m a predator, and you’re prey. I could easily kill you, but I won’t” – he wasn’t apologizing to the horse, but reaffirming the relationship.

What I loved most was the phrase he used that for “3 seconds you make the horse think he is going to die”.

I used this on a mule I raised, never laid a hand on him but became a screaming crazy lunatic when he tried to nip me. 3 seconds then went back to things as normal. It took about 3 times of that and he never offered to nip again. I didn’t have him tied of course because when you act like that they do get back!

[EventerAJ]

My retired upper level mare was very opinionated, and I allowed her to express those opinions so long as it was not dangerous. She could pin her ears and snarl, but never ever put her teeth on anything. She only nipped once while girthing, and immediately flew back in wide eyed horror before I could even react. She knew better. She would also lash her tail like a bullwhip in displeasure during grooming… But as soon as I neared her hind end, the tail went down and she quit; the few times she did smack me with it, I slapped the top of her dock and she’d clamp it down her butt cheeks. She knew her boundaries, and despite her attitude, she could control herself not to hurt anyone. She also kicked while eating, lashing out at no one in particular, but she knows to keep her hind feet down when someone is in the stall with her.

She was a very alert, attentive horse. She hated being touched, but would willingly move over with a pointing finger or verbal ask. She was smarter than most people I know.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ve had the mare - but never heard of the tail swishing to the face being a deliberate thing - except it hurts!
Who agrees it is deliberate?

John Lyons is the one who gave me ‘permission’ to almost kill a horse for three seconds, then continue as normal.
I don’t shout at horse’s (or dogs) though…just not me. If I have to I do lower my voice and sound growly.

Tom Dorrance has a tape out also, he uses a stiff stick to bop the neck of the horse every time he leaned over to nip,
but the horse did not know where it came from.

Fortunately, my current mare was born polite - she wouldn’t dream of being pushy and I had her since birth.

[Foxtrot_s]

^^^^ Woops - how the heck did this post come out twice?

The mare we had was a loaner for my daughter between two other ponies we had - and it did the swish every time
yet she was not a surly mare in any other way - I just might be convinced she did it purposely every time you got within reaching distance of the rear end.

It seems it is always mares…

[Spyder]

Any time you get smacked in the face with a tail, it’s no accident.

[kfrilly]

There’s a mare at my barn who will absolutely flick her tail just as you happen to walk past her, totally deliberate. Those sting like no tomorrow!

Also, just a quick update - tried the “convince your pony that he’s going to die for 5 seconds” method today while we were doing groundwork in the arena… his expression was priceless, haha. It definitely caught him off guard and we only did it twice before it really seemed to click in his mind. Knowing him it might take a couple more rounds, but he was far more respectful tonight. I have to thank you guys again for the wonderful advice.

[Foxtrot_s]

This thread has made some interesting reading (I’d never even thought that the tail swishing may be deliberate!) but we have gone off topic to the OP about her nipping horse.

So long since I even had a horse that I did not raise I have not too much experience with any horses that do not abide by normal codes of civility. I don’t think I’ve ever smacked my horse with a whip, only to guide her as an aide…she just came that way out of the womb.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@kfrilly

…his expression was priceless, haha.

Yay! I love those moments. Great update!

[RedHorses]

I had a gelding who would swish his tail across my eyes. I took his tail away when he did it and he quickly learned that he couldn’t swish legitimate flies. He needed a refresher each summer for a few years.

If the bite/escape game is such that the horse is coming in hard and fast with an open mouth when he thinks you’re not looking you can set it up so he gets bitten before he reaches you. This method won’t work on the sneaky touch, nuzzle, lip, nip.

I was holding a two year old for the farrier one day and the horse started the bite/escape game. Obviously the make him think he’s going to die correction was not an option. So I took a bit of baler twine and tied a loop around his nose just above his nostrils, gently snug, and ran the long tail up over his poll and back down to the loop to make a noseband. Then I stood in range and ignored him.

He went to take a swipe at me and when he opened his mouth to bite the baler twine loop “bit” him before he got near me. Well his eyes bugged with astonishment as he pulled his head back fast. He didn’t understand how I could have bitten him so fast without him seeing me coming. So he gave me the side eye, bided his time, and tried again harder and faster. And got “bitten” first! The expression was astonishment and respect that time. :lol: He didn’t play the game with me after that, but still tried it with other people, though in a rather half hearted fashion.
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