NO such thing as "freak" or "fluke" accidents

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=CSU92;8674543]
…

As a quick example of improving O’Briens data, Dr Ken Matchett’s name is misspelled. Some poster here was probably a witness to his fall and could fill in further details if necessary.

Has anyone started a spreadsheet already?

We have plenty of mental horsepower here to perhaps make some progress if we can keep some of these threads focused and organized somehow.[/QUOTE]

I knew Ken back in the day. He died at Trojan Horse when he attempted to jump from a standstill over a log on a bank into the water. This was at Preliminary. His death was the reason for the rule about jumping from a standstill and for a refusal to be counted when the horse has lost forward momentum at a bank.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=RAyers;8674825]
I knew Ken back in the day. He died at Trojan Horse when he attempted to jump from a standstill over a log on a bank into the water. This was at Preliminary. His death was the reason for the rule about jumping from a standstill and for a refusal to be counted when the horse has lost forward momentum at a bank.[/QUOTE]

That one had a pucker factor of 9.5. up that little hill than 2 smaller drops down, and than that big drop with the hanging log into the water.
Ken had already a huge problem at the Waldens wall and than had to kick his horse hard down the smaller drops. Pretty f… up day that was.

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8675153]
That one had a pucker factor of 9.5. up that little hill than 2 smaller drops down, and than that big drop with the hanging log into the water.
Ken had already a huge problem at the Waldens wall and than had to kick his horse hard down the smaller drops. Pretty f… up day that was.[/QUOTE]

Reminds me of another fatality in California. The rider had already been eliminated XC but refused to stop, continuing on until her fatal crash. Her parents, who were horse professionals I believe, sued the pants off everyone including the dead woman’s trainer and the USEA but eventually lost.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8675153]
That one had a pucker factor of 9.5. up that little hill than 2 smaller drops down, and than that big drop with the hanging log into the water.
Ken had already a huge problem at the Waldens wall and than had to kick his horse hard down the smaller drops. Pretty f… up day that was.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. The first time I did that obstacle my horse gave me the middle hoof and I bounced down both banks on my own. Broke ribs and bruised ego.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=simc24;8666836]

But, until someone that understands how to drive a safety team is in charge, it will not change. I believe they would do better to hire a team of real safety experts from outside the industry with the money they are spending on researching collapsible fences. Horse back riding is not the only dangerous sport/industry in the world, and rather than continually regurgitating the cop-out that it’s just inherently dangerous, it would be nice for some folks with some real safety background and training to assess the situation. I bet there are some of those safety folks with that training and education within the membership’s own ranks.
.[/QUOTE]

Ya think?

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Story just came across my Facebook feed about a 12yo girl who died over the week-end in a barrel racing accident in Missouri - sounds like the horse may have had a heart attack, crashed into the gate, collapsed and pinned the girl underneath. Following is a quote from the story:

“There’s no way it could have been prevented. I’m tearing myself up, I can’t sleep at night, thinking… what could we have done to prevent it? You just can’t,”
http://fox4kc.com/2016/05/23/12-year-old-rider-dies-after-being-pinned-under-horse-that-collapsed-at-rodeo/

Just wanted to throw this in to the mix as an example from another discipline of the mentality of accidents not being preventable. Maybe the heart attack couldn’t have been prevented - but maybe if the girl had been wearing some kind of body protector, her injuries wouldn’t have been fatal - or maybe the arena needs a longer run out box…

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;8676261]
Story just came across my Facebook feed about a 12yo girl who died over the week-end in a barrel racing accident in Missouri - sounds like the horse may have had a heart attack, crashed into the gate, collapsed and pinned the girl underneath. Following is a quote from the story:

“There’s no way it could have been prevented. I’m tearing myself up, I can’t sleep at night, thinking… what could we have done to prevent it? You just can’t,”
http://fox4kc.com/2016/05/23/12-year-old-rider-dies-after-being-pinned-under-horse-that-collapsed-at-rodeo/

Just wanted to throw this in to the mix as an example from another discipline of the mentality of accidents not being preventable. Maybe the heart attack couldn’t have been prevented - but maybe if the girl had been wearing some kind of body protector, her injuries wouldn’t have been fatal - or maybe the arena needs a longer run out box…[/QUOTE] It’s not clear whether the girl succumbed to crush injuries, head injury or some combination of both, but she was apparently not wearing a helmet.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=riderboy;8675715]
Reminds me of another fatality in California. The rider had already been eliminated XC but refused to stop, continuing on until her fatal crash. Her parents, who were horse professionals I believe, sued the pants off everyone including the dead woman’s trainer and the USEA but eventually lost.[/QUOTE]

The old Trojan HT were something special, the courses at all levels were just maxed out huge and sometimes, some jumps, old fashioned, and probably next level. That P had at one point 3 water complexes, with some rather complex combinations and a ton of big jumps and tricky combinations. If thinks did go well a hoot, but if your horse got sticky it was just time to call it.

After Ken’s death the courses were overhauled, call it modernized, still tough but nothing of that old fashion nasty I get you washed out.

[riderboy]

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/31/woman-dies-in-freak-zip-line-accident/21386731/

[ksbadger]

If we follow the FAA’s multi-layer approach to reducing occurences, we have:

1. Provide better personal protection (a lighter, easier to custom fit Exo possibly out of carbon fiber).
2. Improve horse conditioning at all levels by instituting the Canadian post XC Vet check - if your horse does not recover within a reasonable time, you’re spun.
3. Increase rider participation in course review prior to competition - possibly more than one Rider Representative.
4. Review obstacle design with particular emphasis on safer approach angles, sight lines and possibly color. An additional feed in to this might be to produce a small self-contained 3-axis accelerometer package to install on fences to provide more data on the direction and forces encountered.
   Anything else? At this stage there are no bad ideas as any improvement however small may provide a welcome decrease in the rate.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=riderboy;8684755]
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/31/woman-dies-in-freak-zip-line-accident/21386731/[/QUOTE]

Great example of the phrase “freak accident” being used when the speaker does not know what happened.

Listening to the report, it seems possible that a tree had fallen on the zip line before the lady started along it. It is clear that they don’t know what happened and/or when it happened (when the tree had fallen against the line) and it does show that the term can be used lightly.

What a terrible thing to happen.

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=skydy;8685178]
Great example of the phrase “freak accident” being used when the speaker does not know what happened.

Listening to the report, it seems possible that a tree had fallen on the zip line before the lady started along it. It is clear that they don’t know what happened and/or when it happened (when the tree had fallen against the line) and it does show that the term can be used lightly.

What a terrible thing to happen. :([/QUOTE]

Yes, and using phrases like “couldn’t have been avoided” become self fulfilling prophecies. We had that problem in my specialty of Anesthesiology too. Phrases like “just couldn’t stand the strain of the anesthetic” or “had a bad 'reaction” and just didn’t wake up". With proper monitoring, education, closed claims analysis and people that gave a damn, those excuses are fortunately pretty rare. Not that there can’t be problems, but now we are learning how to make it safe as we can. When I first started practice years ago, it could be pretty shocking to hear some of the old time surgeons talk about the “good old days” on both ends of the table.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=riderboy;8685367]
Yes, and using phrases like “couldn’t have been avoided” become self fulfilling prophecies. We had that problem in my specialty of Anesthesiology too. Phrases like “just couldn’t stand the strain of the anesthetic” or “had a bad 'reaction” and just didn’t wake up". With proper monitoring, education, closed claims analysis and people that gave a damn, those excuses are fortunately pretty rare. Not that there can’t be problems, but now we are learning how to make it safe as we can. When I first started practice years ago, it could be pretty shocking to hear some of the old time surgeons talk about the “good old days” on both ends of the table.[/QUOTE]

Yup, exactly what Riderboy said.

[vineyridge]

I would argue that a tree close enough to a zip line to fall on it is a foreseeable accident in waiting. If it fell in an avalanche or in a storm, that might be different, but why would the zip line be running in those conditions?

[JER]

There was an interesting journal article about this a few years ago:

‘It was a freak accident’: an analysis of the labelling of injury events in the US press.

[riderboy]

Just saw this. How depressing, because I can practically guarantee you that almost all or all of these catastrophes were preventable.

According to the Miami Herald, from 2000-2010, there were 46 office surgery deaths in South Florida.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/05/26/florida-woman-warns-dangers-plastic-surgery-after-daughter-sustains-brain-damage.html?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork

[Blugal]

@ksbadger;8685153

2. Improve horse conditioning at all levels by instituting the Canadian post XC Vet check - if your horse does not recover within a reasonable time, you’re spun.

I’m not sure where this misinformation is coming from, but there certainly isn’t a Canadian rule to have a post-XC vet check. We often have a volunteer, sometimes a member of the Ground Jury, at the end of XC. That person may “monitor” you and your horse; but more often than not, I’ve had to argue with them to allow me to remove my horse from the unshaded finish area so that I could do proper cooling-out (remove tack & hose him off). Having this volunteer helpfully tell me to “walk him out and loosen your noseband, and stay here until I think his breathing is OK” is doing nothing for horse welfare or safety.

[ksbadger]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8686179]
I’m not sure where this misinformation is coming from, but there certainly isn’t a Canadian rule to have a post-XC vet check. .[/QUOTE]

Blugal,
My apologies, I was not aware the Vet Check is not a Canadian rule - it was a requirement with an actual DVM at all the ACCQ (the Quebec Eventing Canada affiliate) events when Mrs. KS rode in la Belle Province back in the 80s & 90s. Horse fitness has been identified as a possible contributor to the risk of a fall and, as there is a requirement for a vet to be in attendance at all USEA Recognized events, adding a check by a DVM after XC should not be too burdensome.