NO such thing as "freak" or "fluke" accidents

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8672857]
Read the sidebar article on Honoring Phillipa. UL level eventer who thinks TPTB are dedicated and doing everything possible to increase XC safety.[/QUOTE]

That is not how I read it. I did not read “everything possible.” What I read, in part, is that those bashing TPTB on Social Media are unaware of how much is going on, how much change has occurred, and how dedicated they are to making courses and jumps safer.

And she had so so much more to say, as a contemporary and as a friend of Philippa. I loved it.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by RAyers:

WHAT?! There are other countries?!

:lol:

Michael Jung is from another planet! Where horsemanship and correct riding come before ribbons!

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8672895]
That is not how I read it. I did not read “everything possible.” What I read, in part, is that those bashing TPTB on Social Media are unaware of how much is going on, how much change has occurred, and how dedicated they are to making courses and jumps safer. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, right.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=JP60;8671246]
I’ve had a shit of a week and day, but come on…are we making fun of a farm and people that work to experience long format at Beginner Novice? Come one…maybe it is not the let’s try to kill them approach to Eventing at the upper levels, but it does at least require a dedicated, new, BN rider the opportunity to get even a taste of what it took to train, condition, and enter such an event. I watched horses get spun in the initial, I watched them get spun in the 10 minute, I watch the joy of riders finishing at BN so do NOT ever put down the effort of any rider that wants to even taste what was Eventing.[/QUOTE]

I am making not fun of them.
I question if they actually know what eventing is, know how to ride at a skill level and even are able to comprehend, what conditioning actually means.
Maybe they get a sliver of a taste, maybe. I don’t think so.

If you do not like my opinion, well …

Its BS, got it?

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Badger;8671689]
I have to vouch for the BN three-day as well. I was totally skeptical about the format for that level until I saw it in action, the first time was when I was competing in the training three-day myself, and the second time was when I was cheering on friends in the novice three-day and helping in the ten minute box. The riders in the BN three day were taking it all so seriously and learning a TON. One coach had been a groom for one of the O’Connors and she brought a bunch of students and let me tell you, the level of stable management on that aisle of the barn rivaled what I’ve seen in the barn at WEG and Burgley. The amount of thought riders put into the conditioning for the phases they hadn’t done before was impressive. Everyone left their cynicism at the door and supported each other and chipped in and learned and celebrated the core spirit of eventing. I’m so glad I got to see it unfold and appreciate what that weekend meant for everyone, no matter their level. It was a beautiful thing.

GNEP, I bet you would be pleasantly surprised. You could certainly contribute a lot if you had time to volunteer.[/QUOTE]

Badger, its pony club. Yes it has its merits, it force folks to actually condition. But it is pony club .
I understand that in todays eventing, were there is subterain, Bn and Novice as permanent goals and folks can not or will not hunt or take a day long run of the mill trail ride, you need to have something, bejond the money making, to teach.

I built jumps for sub, BN, N and put the same dedication into the builts, than I did for all the other levels. They payed for it, the entry and deserved, the same quality.
But honestly is that eventing? Nope. Not even close to a skill level.
Well, we have been through that one. Every body will be pissed of again.

So what…, just an arrogant older SOB.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Badger;8671689]
I have to vouch for the BN three-day as well. I was totally skeptical about the format for that level until I saw it in action, the first time was when I was competing in the training three-day myself, and the second time was when I was cheering on friends in the novice three-day and helping in the ten minute box. The riders in the BN three day were taking it all so seriously and learning a TON. One coach had been a groom for one of the O’Connors and she brought a bunch of students and let me tell you, the level of stable management on that aisle of the barn rivaled what I’ve seen in the barn at WEG and Burgley. The amount of thought riders put into the conditioning for the phases they hadn’t done before was impressive. Everyone left their cynicism at the door and supported each other and chipped in and learned and celebrated the core spirit of eventing. I’m so glad I got to see it unfold and appreciate what that weekend meant for everyone, no matter their level. It was a beautiful thing.

GNEP, I bet you would be pleasantly surprised. You could certainly contribute a lot if you had time to volunteer.[/QUOTE]

Badger, its pony club. Yes it has its merits, it force folks to actually condition. But it is pony club .
I understand that in todays eventing, were there is subterain, Bn and Novice as permanent goals and folks can not or will not hunt or take a day long run of the mill trail ride, you need to have something, bejond the money making, to teach.

I built jumps for sub, BN, N and put the same dedication into the builts, than I did for all the other levels. They payed for it, the entry and deserved, the same quality.
But honestly is that eventing? Nope. Not even close to a skill level.
Well, we have been through that one. Every body will be pissed of again.

So what…, just an arrogant older SOB.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8673172]
I question if they actually know what eventing is, know how to ride at a skill level and even are able to comprehend, what conditioning actually means.[/QUOTE]

It can be hard for people to open their minds to pleasant surprises in unexpected places. I include myself in that statement. Part is human nature. I hope you have the opportunity to see in person one of these events – I extend an open invitation to our 3DE which runs the first weekend of May every year. Watch stable management & inspections by our vets & judges who’ve just come down from Rolex. Talk to trainers & riders, some of whom competed when I got to know eventing, before the format changed. Talk to the clinicians & supporters of the event, including Jim Wofford, Becky Holder, Sally O’Connor, or in MD, Stephen Bradley, to name just a few. Heck, you can watch the videos online for free.

As I mentioned, I feel very lucky to be part of the special team who, along with 3DE hosts in other states, offer continued chances for learning more. None of us appeared with ready-installed knowledge & you have to know that opportunities or concepts even exist before you can use them. How else are we to grow?

However unlikely, should the chance arise, I would be glad to share it with you, along with the elevated bar of horsemanship, preparation, management, cooperation, & positive reinforcement, all of which I consider gifts in addition to the individual experiences, both my own & those witnessed, I take home to tide me through storms in many other aspects of life.

Not everything added to the sport works. I’ve also recently watched another far newer experiment fail dismally (fortunately one which involved no injuries). But this particular part, it truly does involve all best things eventing has to offer & incentivizes goals at the heart of our sport.

I won’t derail the important discussion on this thread further, & Gnep, you have made some excellent points elsewhere. So I’ll leave it at that.

[Bonanza]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/science/its-no-accident-advocates-want-to-speak-of-car-crashes-instead.html?_r=0

[Bonanza]

Most times horses save us from ourselves, that’s why we ride them xc. All the gear and no idea grows up eventually, and mostly makes it.

[Badger]

[QUOTE=Bonanza;8674058]
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/science/its-no-accident-advocates-want-to-speak-of-car-crashes-instead.html?_r=0[/QUOTE]

What an excellent and appropriate article. Though its talking about car crashes, it could apply as easily to xc crashes.

“Dr. Rosekind has added his voice to a growing chorus of advocates who say that the persistence of crashes — driving is the most dangerous activity for most people — can be explained in part by widespread apathy toward the issue.Changing semantics is meant to shake people, particularly policy makers, out of the implicit nobody’s-fault attitude that the word “accident” conveys, they said.”

The apathy word is pretty strong, but it gets to the crux of how some of the posters here see the “eventing deaths are freak accidents” argument.

[Badger]

[QUOTE=Bonanza;8674061]

Most times horses save us from ourselves, that’s why we ride them xc. All the gear and no idea grows up eventually, and mostly makes it.[/QUOTE]

Are these pics of you? If not I do hope you have the rider’s permission to share them.

[Bonanza]

Public photos shared on EN …now taken down.

[LAZ]

I dunno, we had a weird one here today–a horse jumped down a drop perfectly, cantered away a few strides, tripped over his own feet, went down on his knees then did a complete ass-over-teakettle roll over somersault. Luckily the kid riding him was not injured as he rolled over the top of her but I thought for a minute we were in serious trouble.

[ksbadger]

Laz,
Yet another reason to try to provide additional personal protection - it does seem that the potentially deadly rotational can be caused spontaneously for a variety of reasons independent of fence design or even a fence!

[vineyridge]

I get the newspaper a week or so late. There was an article in the USToday section of the state paper talking about NASCAR changes. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. was quoted as asking that before major changes to cars (not involving safety, though), that they be well researched and discussed with the drivers before being put into place. He said that making sure they wouldn’t make things more difficult first was sometimes omitted. He talked about a design change that was supposed to help the drivers slingshot other drivers being totally unworkable in practice–and that the drivers knew that, even if the computer didn’t. He said that the first principle always must be “do no harm.”

I’m probably either misinterpreting the article or Earnhardt, Jr.

[blackwly]

[QUOTE=Bonanza;8674061]
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206587045821650&set=pcb.10206587059101982&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206587048301712&set=pcb.10206587059101982&type=3&theater

Most times horses save us from ourselves, that’s why we ride them xc. All the gear and no idea grows up eventually, and mostly makes it.[/QUOTE]

Mercy.

[CSU92]

RAyers, you have persuaded me to your view that the use of those descriptors is part of the problem. As people learn more about the actual statistics, they will be less inclined to see a particular dangerous incident as a freak accident.

Currently, we have some very crude statistics from the FEI but they aren’t easily understood with respect to many variables such as obstacle type or height. If we learn that **** tables are 20X more likely to cause an incident, the suggestion to eliminate **** tables would be more meaningful.

The paper by Denzil O’Brien previously linked is a fine effort to look deeper into the statistics. The list of rider deaths at the end is quite sobering when one recognizes the names of the killed. The table attempts to list more variables but many of the data points such as fence types are listed as unknown.

It would be great if we as a group of interested parties could fill in the blanks, so to speak. We have posters here that know the details of a particular incident up to the point of possibly witnessing it themselves. With more complete data, we can start drilling down to learn the actual risk level we encounter as eventers.

As a quick example of improving O’Briens data, Dr Ken Matchett’s name is misspelled. Some poster here was probably a witness to his fall and could fill in further details if necessary.

Has anyone started a spreadsheet already?

We have plenty of mental horsepower here to perhaps make some progress if we can keep some of these threads focused and organized somehow.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=CSU92;8674543]
RAyers, you have persuaded me to your view that the use of those descriptors is part of the problem. As people learn more about the actual statistics, they will be less inclined to see a particular dangerous incident as a freak accident.

Currently, we have some very crude statistics from the FEI but they aren’t easily understood with respect to many variables such as obstacle type or height. If we learn that **** tables are 20X more likely to cause an incident, the suggestion to eliminate **** tables would be more meaningful.

The paper by Denzil O’Brien previously linked is a fine effort to look deeper into the statistics. The list of rider deaths at the end is quite sobering when one recognizes the names of the killed. The table attempts to list more variables but many of the data points such as fence types are listed as unknown.

It would be great if we as a group of interested parties could fill in the blanks, so to speak. We have posters here that know the details of a particular incident up to the point of possibly witnessing it themselves. With more complete data, we can start drilling down to learn the actual risk level we encounter as eventers.

As a quick example of improving O’Briens data, Dr Ken Matchett’s name is misspelled. Some poster here was probably a witness to his fall and could fill in further details if necessary.

Has anyone started a spreadsheet already?

We have plenty of mental horsepower here to perhaps make some progress if we can keep some of these threads focused and organized somehow.[/QUOTE]

I love you.

[Stall_Rest]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8667643]
I have a question. Has anyone ever tested jumps and colors and color placings and ground lines on free jumping horses to determine which things they can process best and the time it takes them to figure different combinations out?

seems to be that could be a fruitful and relatively inexpensive method of studies.[/QUOTE]

I recall there was a study on this, I think done in the UK a long while ago. This was also discussed in one of these various internet forums about a year ago regarding a white obstacle near or in water with sun reflections and a fall that happened there. Sorry not to provide a link.

But for “links”, from Wiki: The horse’s limited ability to see color is sometimes taken into consideration when designing obstacles for the horse to jump, since the animal will have a harder time distinguishing between the obstacle and the ground if the two are only a few shades off. Therefore, most people paint their jump rails a different color from the footing or the surrounding landscape so the horse may better judge the obstacle on the approach. Studies have shown horses are less likely to have a rail down when the jump is painted with two or more contrasting colors, rather than one single color.[18] It is especially difficult for horses to distinguish between yellows and greens.

But, keep in mind that a horse’s eye sees essentially 2 colors, while a human sees 3. So, what we might see as contrast, they may not.

[JER]

There’s a researcher in Australia, Dr. Alison Harman, who’s done extensive work on equine vision and also specifically on equine vision and XC obstacles. I’ve posted on the BB about her work previously so maybe do a search or just google her name for more on her findings.