Non-traditional breeds in mid-level eventing (modified, prelim?)

[ihearttbs]

Hey all, I am someone who has always owned TBs and really do love the breed, but am moving away from American OTTBs due to having multiple bad experiences with them soundness wise (mostly back and feet issues/arthritis), I’m tired of paying for all the maintenance for longterm damage they sustained by being raced and pushed at a young age before I got them.

I do not have the budget to buy a purpose-bred warmblood. But, I have a very nice trusted source of young, pretty much untouched draft crosses. I have seen many of these be successful in lower level eventing and fox-hunting, but am wondering if anyone has had success with lighter/sporrtier versions of them through Modified or Prelim level. Specifically, I have a 16.2 hh 5 year old Morgan-draft cross in training with me, who is a phenomenal uphill mover and has a better canter than any draft cross I’ve seen that age, and seems to have a fair amount of stamina and is sure-footed on terrain. He basically looks like an oversized Morgan. I’m just starting him over low fences and while he’s not a freak of nature like some young warmbloods I’ve worked with, he seems quite capable.

I know stamina is one of the main issues with draft crosses, but would love to hear anybody else’s experiences with them jumping wise/cross country (I know he will be fine for the dressage) and if it is worth considering this horse as a prospect (down-the-line) for what I want to do or if that’s too much of a stretch.

Thanks!

[Scribbler]

@ihearttbs

Hey all, I am someone who has always owned TBs and really do love the breed, but am moving away from American OTTBs due to having multiple bad experiences with them soundness wise (mostly back and feet issues/arthritis), I’m tired of paying for all the maintenance for longterm damage they sustained by being raced and pushed at a young age before I got them.

I do not have the budget to buy a purpose-bred warmblood. But, I have a very nice trusted source of young, pretty much untouched draft crosses. I have seen many of these be successful in lower level eventing and fox-hunting, but am wondering if anyone has had success with lighter/sporrtier versions of them through Modified or Prelim level. Specifically, I have a 16.2 hh 5 year old Morgan-draft cross in training with me, who is a phenomenal uphill mover and has a better canter than any draft cross I’ve seen that age, and seems to have a fair amount of stamina and is sure-footed on terrain. He basically looks like an oversized Morgan. I’m just starting him over low fences and while he’s not a freak of nature like some young warmbloods I’ve worked with, he seems quite capable.

I know stamina is one of the main issues with draft crosses, but would love to hear anybody else’s experiences with them jumping wise/cross country (I know he will be fine for the dressage) and if it is worth considering this horse as a prospect (down-the-line) for what I want to do or if that’s too much of a stretch.

Thanks!

I’ve seen lots of TBxDraft, Percheron and Clydesdale, and they can come out so different in phenotype, anywhere from looking like a WB to looking like a smaller plow horse.

If this is a breeding program I’d see what the older generations are doing. I wouldn’t think immediately of Morgan x draft as an eventer, but why not a TB x draft, they won’t have the track injuries. Or an Appendix TB x QH? I think the TB cross brings some important qualities. It’s the TB in the WB that makes them athletic.

[EventerAJ]

Lots of “non-traditional” horses can go around modified or prelim, it really depends on the individual animal. Back in the day, I knew several TB/draft crosses that competed long format CCI*. They required a LOT more fitness work than the TBs, and for some of them, it took its toll over time. I don’t know many riders who specifically shopped for draft crosses as Prelim eventers…more like it was the horse they had for novice, and they grew up the levels together with good coaching, good riding, and a lot of conditioning. My (limited) experience is that some draft crosses may tend to show more effects of being tired than traditional sport horses; meaning, their jump flattens, the gallop becomes very labored, and they may lose some “cattiness.” The average TB will still be plenty scrappy even when tired, and most WBs will still maintain a decent jump quality even as they run out of gas.

If you like the horse, then by all means see what it can do. An athletic draft cross is certainly not unheard of at Prelim. But if you like the TB ride, I encourage you to look into sport bred TBs, or even get one prior to race training (yearling, 2yo). With the economy right now, many TB breeders are selling at huge loss, and owners can’t afford to send all of them to training at the track. Plenty of (sound, sane) horses just sitting around looking for a good home that haven’t seen a racetrack.

[Xanthoria]

TB x Welsh cob is a great cross if you can get one. I would imagine TB x Morgan might be similar. F1 draft crosses can be great or can be very clunky. You’ll have to judge the individual.

[ihearttbs]

Thanks for your input! PI do like the TB ride for cross country certainly, but my biggest issue as a young professional who makes their living in the horse industry, is that I’ve found TBs much more difficult to sell if they don’t work out for doing what I want to do. Whereas the draft crosses I have a million people knocking down my door trying to purchase, so if one I have as a personal horse doesn’t work out for what I want to do, I can much more easily resell/repurpose for other things.

Additionally, the majority of TBs I’ve had have had kissing spines to some degree and have needed ongoing lunging work to help build their core muscle/topline so that they can do the flatwork properly. With the amount of time I’ve spent doing this work with them, I would rather spend it in the saddle on a draft cross doing fitness work.

Lastly, I do not want to get a 2 year old. In my book that means 3 years before starting an actual jumping program. With my current competition horse retired and the horses I have in training all lower level (under 3’), I need something that I can fairly quickly get going/bring up the levels.

[Highflyer1]

I’m currently riding a Percheron/Hackney cross and while he is truly lovely and probably the most fun I’ve ever had on a horse he definitely runs out of gas more quickly and more completely than anything else I’ve ever ridden. He also is quite short strided (although that may be the Hackney-- he has a lot of suspension but doesn’t cover ground). OTOH I’ve seen several Percheron/TB crosses that competed through Prelim successfully, and there was that Clydesdale cross in the UK that did Badminton and Burghley.

I think you would have to go on a case by case basis. The market for these types of crosses is obviously super hot right now so if you can get them cheaply and bring them along to BN/Novice and they have good temperaments they will be easy to sell if they don’t work out to do more. I would guess that the ones most suitable for Prelim will be the least suitable for amateur packers (in general). Even the guy I am riding, who is a saintly lesson horse with many years of therapuetic riding experience, can be a little fresh and quite strong in the right circumstances and just his size alone could make that intimidating for some people.

[FLeventer]

Had an appendix QH that went around Prelim. I was the second young rider he carried around. He was still eventing at 24 last time I checked, just tadpole/starter but still. I had another full QH that I took novice, unrecognized training. He could have probably jumped around prelim but I needed to sell him for college money. He was sporty and so game. Loved that horse.

But yeah, there are some good crosses with the drafts and there seems to be a decent market for them.

[Bonnie2]

Many drafts are excellent jumpers and can event prelim. Unfortunately, drafts have not been bred for prolonged galloping and tend not to stay sound over the longer distances, higher speeds, and bigger fences. Conditioning is more of an issue with a draft than a blood horse but not a limiting factor. If you like the 5yo, go for it. Draft crosses are extremely saleable if he turns out to not be a prelim horse.

[fanfayre]

I competed Prelim with a QH/Belgian cross. Very rarely had jumping or time faults either in x/c or stadium, usually well-placed after dressage (came off a grade horse onto him and were usually last or very near to, so anything in top 1/2 was amazing for the first while!) Finished in the ribbons several times too, always in the top 1/3 of placings, whether it was 20 entrants per class or 45. Qualified for Provincial Championships on 3rd Prelim start. This was >30 years ago in Ontario when eventing was thriving.
But @Bonnie2 is correct regarding soundness, as I experienced .

[ihearttbs]

I haven’t had any luck with ottbs staying sound in eventing- while they are bred to gallop, they are not bred to jump either. What are the soundness issues people have experienced with draft crosses eventing? Thx!

[fanfayre]

Well, in our case it was suspensory desmitis and sesamoiditis brought on by long-back/downhill build with large hindquarters and lighter front end after 2 full seasons of recognized horse trials at Training and Preliminary, and 1/3 of a 2nd prelim season.
He rehabbed well and transitioned to lower (3’ to 3’3”) jumpers and dressage (current upper 2nd/ first elements of 3rd levels) with nightly stable bandaging, until having to be euthanized due to a very severe case of RDC a few years later.

[Bonnie2]

They tend to have more mass and concussion. Think of how a thoroughbred springs off the ground at gallop and a draft galumphs into the ground. Both gross generalities! Drafts (and many non drafts) have a lot of foot problems. They also seem to develop more hind end soft tissue and stifle issues.

[Scribbler]

@Bonnie2

They tend to have more mass and concussion. Think of how a thoroughbred springs off the ground at gallop and a draft galumphs into the ground. Both gross generalities! Drafts (and many non drafts) have a lot of foot problems. They also seem to develop more hind end soft tissue and stifle issues.

You can get very different outcomes for a draft x TB. I’ve seen ones that move like a TB and look like a WB in terms of bone structure. Then I’ve seen them come out looking like a plow horse. Obviously the latter will gallumph. Do you think a cross that comes out looking much more TB/WB will have the same issues?

[fanfayre]

@Scribbler

You can get very different outcomes for a draft x TB. I’ve seen ones that move like a TB and look like a WB in terms of bone structure. Then I’ve seen them come out looking like a plow horse. Obviously the latter will gallumph. Do you think a cross that comes out looking much more TB/WB will have the same issues?

Interesting question, and an anecdote:
At the same time I was competing my guy, another girl was competing same level with her Belgian/TB. My guy was significantly lighter in build and movement, but her guy remained sounder a little longer. Now, that may have been because her horse spent his early years as a dressage horse before turning to eventing, while my guy was basically a pleasure ride (ha- that was his name too- Pleasure) until I was asked to take him, so his bones and ligaments didn’t get the building-up that true-bred performance horses do (he was literally bred for his colour- palomino- and not so much for a performance career), but that was >30 years ago now, so who knows?

[Live_Wire]

I competed a cute little Morgan through training - she later went on to be competitive through Prelimary. She was so fun! She never met a liverpool that didn’t have monsters living inside it. Luckily she tapped more into her fight mode than flight mode and just attacked everything. It took me quite some time to learn how to stay with her and she was a tough sell because she required a specific ride. She went in hinds only.

I had a Selle Francais/App who was successful through Preliminary/1* - barefoot, too! I’ve seen a lot of really great Appy’s rocking and rolling around mid-levels. Be advised, they can be STUBBORN. I don’t think I’d ever own an Appaloosa mare… I have nightmares.

An Appendix is a super option, but I do think you have to be very mindful of their confirmation. A friend took hers through 2*, were prepared for 3* and had a lot of people tell her she had a chance at blue numbers - unfortunately she contracted EPM and she decided not to bring her back to the level. She was early teens and had neck arthritis and KS, but with proper maintenance and a specific warmup, it was a non issue. She was never stellar in dressage though, even at low level.

I have a friend who has a Standardbred something - they rescued mom and were unaware she was in foal until they opened the barn one morning to feed and SURPRISE! They’ve been super competitive through 2*, aiming for 3*. Minimal maintainence, but she is very mindful of keeping her properly conditioned and is very careful with her legs.

There’s a Quarab listed in Georgia that recently caught my eye. I bet that would make for a fun and game event horse!

[Bonnie2]

Hard to say. How much is proprioception, how much is bone and tendon structure, bone angle, mass…

The better a horse gallops - think Cooley Rosalent - the easier they are on their bodies. But if someone could ever figure out why one horse stays sound and another doesn’t, they would be rich and us horse people would be so happy!

[MadTrotter]

This is a good point re: build/angles and look at the gallop. There was some saying in dressage like, ride the walk, train the trot, buy the canter.

For example, a goose rump in a draft-X would be a serious fault to me for any kind of performance, since the forward tilted pelvis seriously restricts the ROM in the hind, thus the horse has to pound out shorter, harder strides.

Dutch harness and Fresian crosses are popping up all over the place, too, and some are quite stunning on first glance but sometimes a very flat, long back and croup creates a lot of leg action beneath a tense top line and high, braced neck. This can be really frustratingly difficult to retrain and you’re fighting against their build.

All this is to say, evaluate the horse in front of you but keep aware of how each breed/type can have tendencies.

[ihearttbs]

I’ve never really cared for the friesian/Dutch types.

The guy I have in right now (and my preferred type)- sort of just look like a bigger version of a pony. Or think classic old style Morgan, oversized. Super sure footed and certainly seems to move well in the field.

[Nancy2]

I have ridden my Paint horse to prelim and he was great but had a much more appendix type body. I think a lot of it depends on their body shape.

[beowulf]

The right draft cross can be lovely but as another poster mentioned, once you get past Training their lack of blood can present difficulty in fitness and they tend to tap out sooner (and stay tapped out, with little try).

I think a Connemara or a more traditionally bred ISH (think TBxRID) might be worth looking into. They don’t tend to sell as high as young WBs.

The right Morgan/TB, having the best of both parents, would probably be lovely. A few years ago I saw a stunning one at CNYDCTA that took my breath away — wish I knew his breeding.

How about TBs bred for sport? I know of a nice young TB mare bred for sport, no affiliation with seller, I just like her sire and have causally followed her breeder for several years.