Northern Dancer . . .

[QUOTE=ejm;8738807]
EGS was bred and raced by E. P. Taylor and Coolmore. He retired to Windfields and was syndicated for $40 Million total. Coolmore kept a large interest (around a quarter IIRC) and self-insured. The insurers settled with other syndicate members and he was moved to Ashford for the rest of his career in a partnership with Coolmore.

The high number of covers I referred to occurred during his first season when they were trying everything and breeding and collecting constantly trying to figure out what was going on with him before the insurance companies had to pay off. It was a highly unusual and truly shocking number of covers at that time (1985) although many stallions routinely maker 2 to 3 times that many today.

EGS would have been one od truly great sons Northern Dancer if he’d had even moderate fertility.[/QUOTE]

This is not entirely accurate and I didn’t want to or have the time to write a book. But by nature I feel there should be a certain amount of historical accuracy considering the amount of people who have read, will read long after this posting without fact checking.

Quoting from very reliable sources. EGS was bred and raced in partnership as explained by the Blood Horse;

“A brother to champion Try My Best, El Gran Senor was bred in a partnership that included E.P. Taylor, Magnier, Robert Sangster, and trainer Vincent O’Brien and was campaigned in Sangster’s name on behalf of a partnership”

I believe it can be said Try My Best who was bought and raced by Robert Sangster (the money behind what became Coolmore, Magnier being the business “brains” and V O’Brien the “master” of the horses) put him in the stallion business. The rest is the history called Coolmore.

EGS dam Sex Appeal unraced a foal of 71 was bought by Taylor for $55,000 but the “The Lads” bought into her when Try My Best was a 2 year old. As explained in this’

“Foaled in Kentucky, Sex Appeal was bred by Anne Forsythe (Mrs. H. Frank Forsythe), who sold her for US$52,000 at the 1971 Keeneland July yearling sale. Sex Appeal spent most of her broodmare career as the property of E. P. Taylor. Robert Sangster (along with Vincent O’Brien and John Magnier) purchased an interest in her following Try My Best’s juvenile season, and Taylor sold his interest in the mare to Swettenham Stud and Partners following the birth of her 1983 foal, Golden Oriole”

Swettenham Stud was/is the name Sangster bred under. The “partners” we know.

He only stood for one season at Windfields Md, also from the Blood Horse;

“El Gran Senor (Northern Dancer-Sex Appeal, by Buckpasser) stood his first season at his E.P. Taylor’s Windfields Farm in Maryland in 1985, then was moved the following breeding season to Ashford”

Ashford is the American division of Coolmore, aka Coolmore America if memory serves Coolmore had just acquired the Ashford property was putting the finishing touches on it in 85 which is why EGS stood in Md. The “partner’s” fondly referred to as the “Irish Mafia” not so fondly by some of their adversaries own/owned a number of horses in partnership. But never a non-controlling interest.

As to the syndicate ownership without digging out a syndicate agreement I have somewhere I would agree. Coolmore and partners always bought/kept controlling interest. Most if not all syndicate agreements state it takes around 80% sometime 85% of syndicate members to move or make any changes to the syndicate agreement, syndicate manager.

A large percentage of the horse was insured for infertility. I knew the insurance adjuster and a number of people that owned shares. The insurance company dictates how things have to be done before they will pay a claim. They ended up paying and taking ownership of X percentage of the horse. Coolmore payed X cents on the dollar and purchased him from the Underwriters.

I saw EGS win the 2000 Guineas, my first time to Newmarket racecourse. My first art “investment” is a signed and numbered 19 of 300 of the fabulous IMO painting by the NZ artist Peter Williams of him losing by a short head to Secreto (trained by V O’Brien’s son David) in the English Derby.

“EGS would have been one of truly great sons Northern Dancer if he’d had even moderate fertility”

Totally agree

Please don’t take exception for filling in, correcting some historic “facts”. It’s nice to see/read someone else that seemed to have been around the block. My first trip to Coolmore was with my father who was good friends with the “Partners” in 83 while it was still under construction. I was a “fly on the wall” but it was not lost on me how special it was to be allowed to sit at the same table with history makers. My father got invited to Sangster’s fabulous birthday parties in the Barbados. My invitation must have gotten lost in the mail.

Phonsie O’Brien the youngest and last living brother of V O’Brien died last week. Phonsie IMO personality wise was the complete opposite of Vincent. Gregarious and just a great guy to hang out with. But I didn’t “hang out” with the master and only had very brief “meetings”. I think he left the fun and story telling up to Phonsie

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8737973]
Interestingly, back in 2014 when the Gray Ghost was inducted into the MD HOF, NZ reported on it. The sire of Natalma and dame side of the Northern Dancer legacy, the Gray Ghost is often forgotten in the wake of TB history in favor of his son, MR P. I remember that Native Dancer had fragile ankles, and most of his progeny couldn’t escape that unsoundness commentary.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2014/11/20/native-dancer-honored-maryland/#axzz4BhCe7Dof[/QUOTE]

2008 article. https://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/is-gray-ghost-haunting-todays-thoroughbred-stars/

[QUOTE=CFFarm;8740652]
2008 article. https://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/is-gray-ghost-haunting-todays-thoroughbred-stars/[/QUOTE]

I have seen this before. Hail to Reason carried the same worrisome gossip. You know trainers immediately after WWII, the good ones at least, we’re more adapt imo to manage the soundness issues of their horses because for the most part they ran more frequently and track surfaces, facilities, vet services obviously were more impoverished.

I wish I could remember the link, but I recall a study that once suggested pedigree trumps conformation everytime.

Thanks for posting this.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8738524]
I don’t recall any soundness issues with Northern Dancer or his line. At least, not to the extreme of Hail to Reason or Mr. Prospector. Bold Ruler’s race career had to be managed carefully also though his produce were generally more known for Nasrullah attitude. The great trainers following WWII could keep an unsound horse running because they knew all the tricks of the trade and treated horses as individuals. Luro was a great trainer. Still I just don’t recall the unsoundness conversation with Northern Dancer.

I guess looking back, Northern Dancer could have been mistaken as a QH that was off his feed. Haha.[/QUOTE]

Hail to Reasons having soundness issues? Are you sure you dont mean someone else?

There were many who believed in 80’s and 90’s that Hail to Reason was a progenitor of unsoundness. Much like the feeling about Raise a Native, I guess. I am a big fan of HTR. I never came across any basis for it. Like with the link provided above about Native Dancer the comments could get intense as it related to a race horse stallion’s unsoundness and often had to be refuted. I was just alluding to their reputations, ill gotten at best, not necessarily fact.

This link maybe of interest to some. About Havre de Grace, it is full of HTR history.

https://thevaulthorseracing.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/2011-horse-of-the-year-wears-a-halo/

In this link. It notes that HTR breeding performance was suspect.

That article says no such thing about Hail to Reason. It DOES say that *Turn -To produced unsoundness, which is very true. It says nothing about Hail to Reason. It says:

Halo could not really help being such a bad-tempered colt. His sire, Hail to Reason, had needed a good deal of convincing to bloom into the well-mannered horse he became and his grandsire, Turn-To (1951), a son of Royal Charger (1942) and grandson of the incomparable Nearco (1936), got mixed reviews in the breeding shed.

Hail to Reason was an incredible sire, producing tough, sound, fast horses. Possibly my favorite horse of all time. So I get touchy about him!

It was not a feeling about Raise a Native, it was the truth. He was a big heavy bodied horse on small legs, and it was not unusual for his progeny to have short careers. They were very fast tho! Hail to Reason, on the other hand, produced horses with long careers. Hail to Reason himself made 18 starts before Sept. of his 2 year old year. I wont hold the fact that he broke down in a morning workout after all those starts against him.

Interesting article about a grandson of Danzig making a splash in England at the right stud price.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/what-3000-sire-is-making-waves-in-england/