Not a fan of the flag penalty

[EventerAJ]

I do not like the 15pt flag penalty on xc. I understand it might be there to catch unsafe riders flying by the seat of their pants, but it shouldn’t punish one iffy fence on an otherwise nice round. Will Coleman and Tight Lines had a great go, with one dicey moment at the skinny in the water-- getting through it was good xc riding, and not fair that he is penalized more than a rider who is 37 seconds over time. Same with Lauren Kieffer.

And yet Ariel Grald took a flag WITH HER for two jumps, is not penalized, something that seemed far more dangerous.

I noticed several riders looking behind them over their shoulders on landing to see if flags were up or down. Not how I want xc riding to be…too much show jumping/ backward tendencies already.

[Willesdon]

Does anyone like it?

[tres_grey]

I personally love the accuracy it demands and how it adds more complexity safely. I don’t understand why some riders are penalized and others aren’t. It should be as black and white as a dropped rail.

[Rnichols]

I agree. I think it’s f*#,Â¥ing stupid, honestly. Yes let’s penalize one hairy moment (when let’s be real you can have dicey moments and not touch the flags). But then you can jump two jumps with a POLE HANGING OFF YOU and it’s okay. #feilogic

[wsmoak]

I wasn’t sure exactly what had changed, and found this article:
http://eventingnation.com/know-your-fei-rules-runout-definition-and-flag-penalty-changes-for-2019/

So, more than 50% of the horse’s body has to get over the height and width of the fence as flagged. Flailing legs are apparently okay.

And you cannot ask the fence judge whether you were clear or not (really, how would they know, from a side angle?) but you will not get eliminated or get extra jump penalties if you circle back around and jump it again to make sure.

I think the announcer said that they had cameras on every fence so that if they needed a replay to decide, they’d have the footage. The only way you can tell is by standing directly in front of the fence.

[Rnichols]

@wsmoak

I wasn’t sure exactly what had changed, and found this article:
http://eventingnation.com/know-your-fei-rules-runout-definition-and-flag-penalty-changes-for-2019/

So, more than 50% of the horse’s body has to get over the height and width of the fence as flagged. Flailing legs are apparently okay.

And you cannot ask the fence judge whether you were clear or not (really, how would they know, from a side angle?) but you will not get eliminated or get extra jump penalties if you circle back around and jump it again to make sure.

I think the announcer said that they had cameras on every fence so that if they needed a replay to decide, they’d have the footage. The only way you can tell is by standing directly in front of the fence.

So in that article, the grey horse would be considered missing a flag and getting 15 penalties…and massive eye rolling starts now. I zoomed in and took a screen shot but it’s not allowing me to upload on here. I encourage everyone to zoom in on that photo. That’s crazy that THAT is considered a penalty. I’m sorry, this is dumb. But what do I know, if only an AA. I’m sure everyone in charge is a lot more knowledgeable than me.

[NCRider]

Also not a fan of the flag penalty but strongly believe there’s no way Ariel Gerald should have received one. Not only was she clear within the text of the rule, the organizers should be thanking their lucky stars neither she nor her horse got hurt because of that flag. I could be mistaken, but I don’t remember them being quite so substantially constructed in the last few years. At least since a horse got impaled by one at Jersey Fresh.

[EventerAJ]

@NCRider

Also not a fan of the flag penalty but strongly believe there’s no way Ariel Gerald should have received one. Not only was she clear within the text of the rule, the organizers should be thanking their lucky stars neither she nor her horse got hurt because of that flag. I could be mistaken, but I don’t remember them being quite so substantially constructed in the last few years. At least since a horse got impaled by one at Jersey Fresh.

I don’t believe Ariel should have received it either, just saying if it is a “safety rule” it’s not a very good one. But then again, the FEI has a lot of poor rules.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹Flags are designed to break away from the fence, as that one did. Just very awkward that it somehow ended up under her stirrup leather. Kudos to her that she didn’t let it break her focus in the moment.

[Simba27]

If the majority of the horse gets through the flags, they aren’t penalized, even if they hit the flag. Will got penalized because his horse didn’t even jump the fence, he like hopped over the side of it. Lauren’s 15 penalties have been removed from her score. Ariel wasn’t penalized because her horse jumped the fence in between the flags and just hit one. You aren’t penalized for hitting and taking down a flag, you’re penalized for your horse not jumping the fence in between the flags. Fair rule imo

[fordtraktor]

I don’t think it is a safety rule at all, it is to make sure the horse actually jumps the jump. I am sure it can be hard to know in the heat of the moment whether you need to represent or not. This penalizes a glance off mistake without eliminating.

still, I think the older shoulder rule was more functional. If we are just trying to eliminate unfair Es, the flag should be penalized the same as a stop.

[goodmorning]

Lauren’s round, well, I think pre flag rule she may have represented meaning 20 because that was a very obvious miss.

Colemans I feel badly about.

i do not like this rule, the horses are trained to get between the flags & know they give like brush. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense in the scheme of things.

[Lord_Helpus]

I have jump judged for years. 95% of the time I felt sure my call was right. It is really not that hard to tell if a horse has gone through the flags, as the rule used to be written.

This seems to be an answer in search of a problem.

[goodmorning]

Yes what precipitated this rule? I do recall AN a few years ago getting a win at Pau (?) on the last fence that was a miss but that was a few years ago I think…

[vineyridge]

@goodmorning

Yes what precipitated this rule? I do recall AN a few years ago getting a win at Pau (?) on the last fence that was a miss but that was a few years ago I think…

I think there was something at Adelaide last year or the year before; AN, IIRC, did his shoulders only jump at the Caen WEG, maybe. With all the corners that are used now, there must have been a felt need to train the riders and horses to actually jump the whole jump and not just a point.

[OverandOnward]

It appears the rule is about the horse’s body. If the rider’s knee takes out the flag, then that’s not a penalty, and I assume that was the case for Ariel Grald.

I am under the impression that these penalties would have been 20’s or, if not re-jumped, E’s before the flag rule. I have no problem saving a round that would otherwise be an E.

This rule takes pressure off the rider, it seems to me. If it’s 15 penalties the rider can keep going, it’s done and no reason to jump again to avoid an E.

It also takes some of the pressure off of the jump judge. Some iffy jumps were not called before the rule because the jj saw that something happened but was reluctant to give it an E when the rider didn’t come back for another try.

And the replay will also take more pressure away from the JJ. The JJ can call what they see, and the final decision is on the replay and not with the JJ.

Seems more fair than E’ing an otherwise good round, or conversely, allowing a rider with a mostly-missed jump to finish and perhaps take a ribbon if a JJ in doubt didn’t call it.

[EventerAJ]

@Lord Helpus

I have jump judged for years. 95% of the time I felt sure my call was right. It is really not that hard to tell if a horse has gone through the flags, as the rule used to be written.

This seems to be an answer in search of a problem.

Agreed. My understanding of the original rule, it was considered clear if 50% of the horse passed between the flags. If the horse hooked a flag with a knee/shoulder or hip, as long as his neck, other shoulder, and other hip passed through the flags, you were clear. As a rider, I can be pretty certain of that (which side did his head go on?). And if I had any doubt, I could call out to the jump judge for clarification.

The new style of flagging corners, such that only 4.5ft of face is available instead of the whole 6ft face, really tends to push horses over the point flag. I much prefer when the wider side was flagged more generously… If I’m sitting on a scopey green horse who drifts a little, I might aim for the wider bit knowing he has enough power to get it done, and stay safe away from the point flag. Unfortunately a lot of modern corners have the flags moved in (instead of a pot of flowers defining the wide side) so you must be very, very accurate and if your horse gets a little claustrophobic by the flags, tough luck.

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[Jealoushe]

I think a lot of people think this rule means you knock a flag you get the penalty. They aren’t understanding it’s about whether the horse jumps the jump or not.

Its meant to ensure accuracy so people don’t need go flying and wheeling around willy nilly and ending up on parts of the fence they shouldnt. Or being marked clear when really the horse jumps sideways off the fence. That’s not clearing it.

Jump judges at the skinny fences were recording every ride with iPads for this rule.

[alicen]

@goodmorning

i do not like this rule, the horses are trained to get between the flags & know they give like brush. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense in the scheme of things.

The thing is: not all horses are aware of the scheme of things, like the horse that slid under the jump and the horse that went over backwards - clearly hadn’t read the rules about keeping the red flag on the right. Sometimes weird stuff happens on a cross country course and the fence judges, thank you very much, would appreciate keeping bizarre jump calls to a minimum.

[runNjump86]

@Lord Helpus

I have jump judged for years. 95% of the time I felt sure my call was right. It is really not that hard to tell if a horse has gone through the flags, as the rule used to be written.

This seems to be an answer in search of a problem.

This x100.

[OverandOnward]

@Lord Helpus

I have jump judged for years. 95% of the time I felt sure my call was right. It is really not that hard to tell if a horse has gone through the flags, as the rule used to be written.

This seems to be an answer in search of a problem.

All true for veteran JJ’s who know the sport, especially if they have ridden the sport.

There are a good many events who are scratching for JJ’s and have JJ’s with all kinds of experience, or lack of experience in the JJ chair. Of course the most experienced people are placed at the most challenging jumps. But the league, as it were, has to plan for lower common denominators to make scoring as consistent as it can be.