Not being present for PPE?

[Gorgonzola]

Hi all,

I made the silly mistake of finding an awesome horse around the holidays- whoops!

Seller is willing to bring horsey to, what appears like, a really wonderful vet. She highly recommends them, as they’ve done a few PPEs for her. She runs a newer OTTB re-homing program, and is really adamant about finding the right home for all of the horses she has, as she wants to make sure people are completely happy with their new horses- which in turn will lead to more/better business for her.

Horse is located approx 2 hours from my vet, and while my vet is very nice, he’s umm, not great, so him doing a PPE is not anything I want. The vet she is recommending is not her local vet (it’s about an hour from her place) but uses them for coggins and PPEs, because she can walk out of there with coggins in hand, and x-rays are digital and ready immediately.

She said they can do the PPE while I’m on the phone. I’m more than OK with this, as I’ll be at home (3 hour flight away…) next week, not at work, so I’ll have time to sit on the phone for an hour.

Would you ever do this?

[saffire_100]

I just bought a horse that was 1400 miles away from me and I did not fly there for the PPE. It worked out fine. I did speak to the vet on the phone for a few minutes during the exam as something came up.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

I did a phone PPE last summer. I was in Texas, horse was in Scottsdale. Make sure to spell out what xrays or other stuff you want done and have’em shoot’em to ya pronto.

In my case, the Scottsdale vet said on the phone that horse’s x-rays were jim-dandy. Awesome! Horse is purchased same afternoon. X-rays are emailed to me a few days later.

Fast forward 6 weeks. Horse is home with me and slightly off on the right fore. I consult my computer banks, locate the digital films, and discover that the right fore fetlock views are mysteriously missing. Local vet takes the necessary pictures, discovers arthritic changes. Unlikely, he opined, to have suddenly taken place in the intervening 6 weeks.

I later find out that the PPE vet was seller’s regular vet and had been well acquainted with my new horse. Was the omission just an oversight? Or a purposeful obfuscation? I’ll never know.

Live and learn, right?

[Gorgonzola]

What x-ray would I ask for? I was just going to ask that all 4 legs be x-rayed, do I need to be more specific than that?

[JumpQH]

I have done PPEs in other states when I wasn’t there. With one horse, I discovered that he was so ill-tempered that I ended up not buying him. When I’d been talking to the seller, nothing had been said about that, even though I asked specific questions. I have found the vets I have dealt with (none that I knew) were honest and I was happy with the result.

[joiedevie99]

I like to attend the vetting (and attend local ones), but have not on my last two purchases. When I’ve flown across the country to try a horse, I’m usually not too eager to fly back 3-4 days later for the vetting.

After vetting ~12 horses this year, here are my recommendations:

1. The Pre-Vetting: Prior to a PPE, I email my vet the sale video, the video of my trial ride, and any x-rays the seller has. If that gets a thumbs up…

2. Choose a PPE vet: I love my vet, and have sent her up to 6 hours away before. If she isn’t going, I let her choose the vet who will go. Sometimes we use someone several hours away from the seller because she has a pre-existing relationship with them, and thinks they have a good eye and are trustworthy. Sometimes we know no one and we both ask around and evaluate our choices. This is perhaps the most important step - many, many vets are wonderful people, and even wonderful vets for many purposes, but have no eye for the subtle lameness or no real experience evaluating a sporthorse while it does its job.

3. Have a call: Once you’ve chosen a vet, everyone needs to get on the same page. I schedule a call with me, my vet, and the PPE vet. I spend 30 seconds telling the new vet what kind of rider I am, what my experience is, and what my expectations are for the new horse. Then we talked about what is included in the PPE vet’s package, and what we need to add on to that. My vet will then discuss any concerns from the video/earlier x-rays, and forward all of that to the PPE vet. I usually try to give the PPE vet an understanding of my tolerance for certain problems, i.e. “I’m picky. I won’t run from a .5 flexion in a hock, but expect no detectable lameness in straight line, circle or under saddle.”

4. PPE: I typically request a phone call at the conclusion of the clinical exam. We discuss the results of the exam, flexions, and under saddle work, and jointly decide whether to proceed to x-rays. Sometimes this is an easy decision. Other times I will conference my vet in to help decide whether X finding should or shouldn’t be a deal breaker.

5. If we’ve made it to the end, I usually get a quick call saying generally looks good or concerns about the __ x-ray. All of the x-rays get sent to my vet, along with any videos that were taken during the exam. We all have a call to discuss the findings, then a decision is made and the horse is paid for. I typically receive a full write-up and a disc of the x-rays a month or two later.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

COTH is populated more experienced horse traders than I am who could advise you, but I personally try to err on the side of caution and x-ray the snot out of the legs. The vet should ask you which views you want. Stifles, hocks, fetlocks, what have you. You probably already know that each view is gonna cost a mint. I like to have a baseline for when it all starts going south in the future.

Bonne chance!

[ambar]

I bought a broodmare in MD while I was living in CA. I asked the seller who their regular vet was, then chose someone else in an equine practice that covered that area. I spoke with the vet on the phone while she was doing the exam. We didn’t do x-rays, but that’s because I didn’t care if the mare was three legged lame as long as she could carry a foal and be made comfortable. She gave me two fillies and lived soundly to the age of 29. No complaints, and I’d do it again.

[merrygoround]

Also request a complete physical description of the horse.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Gorgonzola;7917026]
What x-ray would I ask for? I was just going to ask that all 4 legs be x-rayed, do I need to be more specific than that?[/QUOTE]

That could get you in trouble! For example, I have 4 views of just one of my horse’s ankles. And of course you only see the big bone chip in the last one. Flexes 100% sound. But you can see the injury from “outside.”

Anyway, assuming there is nothing that flexes “off” or requires further exam, and no signs of past or present injury or swelling on the horse, I always get front feet, and hock views (good baseline to have). Then, depending on what I’m spending, and what the horse has been doing, I think about adding fetlocks and stifles. If the horse hasn’t been in full training, then I spend more on PPE. Weird stuff can come up with a horse goes back into work.

That’s just what I do, others probably do something else! I would ask your vet/trainer/etc. what they recommend.

If it is her vet I would also require that he/she provides your vet with the animals full medical records.

[CHT]

I prefer to be there too, but have done PPE’s long distance…however I ALWAYS have my own vet review the notes and x-rays before committing.

I like to get x-rays of the feet and usually hocks (assuming the horse was doing ok with the PPE up to that point), but beyond that, I x-ray based on the vet’s advice and findings on the flexions.

If you are spending big money or have a big PPE budget, then by all means x-ray everything, but that will add up to more than I tend to spend on horses!

[inca]

[QUOTE=CHT;7917199]
I prefer to be there too, but have done PPE’s long distance…however I ALWAYS have my own vet review the notes and x-rays before committing. [/QUOTE]

Definitely have your own vet review the x-rays before making a final decision. I have done it but it can be difficult. You aren’t there to SEE the flexions and to look at the horse in person so see if anythings feels “off” to you. You are putting a LOT of trust in a vet you don’t know.

[Gorgonzola]

[QUOTE=CHT;7917199]
I prefer to be there too, but have done PPE’s long distance…however I ALWAYS have my own vet review the notes and x-rays before committing.

I like to get x-rays of the feet and usually hocks (assuming the horse was doing ok with the PPE up to that point), but beyond that, I x-ray based on the vet’s advice and findings on the flexions.

If you are spending big money or have a big PPE budget, then by all means x-ray everything, but that will add up to more than I tend to spend on horses![/QUOTE]

I budgeted about $1000 for the PPE, as that’s what my parents told me they paid for the PPE on my last horse, over 10 years ago…
Called the vet, their PPE without x-rays is $250, just under $200 for blood/drug screen, and about 30/view for x-rays. So I will be well under budget, even if I do front feet, hock and anything vet recommends!

[OveroHunter]

I would say that for about 50% of the horses my husband sells, the prospective owner is not present for the PPE. The vet calls them on the phone (but doesn’t stay with them on the phone the whole time) and lets them know if he recommends any xrays.

We had a vet check done on a horse far away (can’t actually remember where though… it was a few years ago) and asked the vet to stick the horse for us too. We were supposed to be buying a 15.3 mare and turned out she was slightly under 15 :eek: She passed the check, but we turned her down because DH and I are both really tall.

[Guilherme]

This is my concern: “She highly recommends them, as they’ve done a few PPEs for her.” The PPE is not for the seller it’s for the BUYER. The suggestion of a long term business relationship between the vet. and seller might be as pure as new fallen snow but whenever real money is involved there should be a strong element of “trust but verify.”

Try and get the names of some other vets in the area. I think the AAEP has a list and that would be one place to look.

Your local vet. may also have a recommendation.

The buyer being present during the examination is a check on any gross skulduggery but is no guarantee of honesty and competance.

If you are going to bear the cost of the exam then you get to choose the vet. Choose wisely!!!

G.

[stolen_virtue]

I was not there for my last OTTB. Owner gave me the name of two vets that she only used for emergencies and were not her regular vet. Horse had not raced was late 3, and had been riden for about 4-5 months off the track so I only went with front ankle x-rays. Not enough work to really warrent hind x-rays for me. I spoke with the vet after…owner complained a bit about the flexions being agressive. Horse passed I bought him. That will be 4 years ago next Feb and horse is doing very well, and is sound. I had ridden the horse the week before and the owner was honest and very knowledgable. Horse was over 5 hours away from me.

Good luck and keep us posted !!

[Hulk]

I have done it several times. Horse was several states away, and I didn’t fly out personally. I believe most vets are honest and have no desire to lie for a seller. But perhaps I am living in a happy place and not reality. Things always seemed to work out, even though I carry on in such a fashion.

I have also sold horses cross country to people that have used my vet, because getting another where we are at is tough. (we are very rural) I certainly don’t try to hide anything, and would never ask a my vet to lie on my behalf for a sale.

Good luck happy horse shopping to you!

[NJRider]

This is all excellent advice. I also want to add it is well worth checking with the State’s Vet Board to see if the PPE vet has any complaints/reprimands etc on record. Had I done this it would have saved me a heap of trouble in my last horse purchase long distance…too bad there are many, many unethical trainers/vets out there.

[QUOTE=joiedevie99;7917037]
I like to attend the vetting (and attend local ones), but have not on my last two purchases. When I’ve flown across the country to try a horse, I’m usually not too eager to fly back 3-4 days later for the vetting.

After vetting ~12 horses this year, here are my recommendations:

1. The Pre-Vetting: Prior to a PPE, I email my vet the sale video, the video of my trial ride, and any x-rays the seller has. If that gets a thumbs up…

2. Choose a PPE vet: I love my vet, and have sent her up to 6 hours away before. If she isn’t going, I let her choose the vet who will go. Sometimes we use someone several hours away from the seller because she has a pre-existing relationship with them, and thinks they have a good eye and are trustworthy. Sometimes we know no one and we both ask around and evaluate our choices. This is perhaps the most important step - many, many vets are wonderful people, and even wonderful vets for many purposes, but have no eye for the subtle lameness or no real experience evaluating a sporthorse while it does its job.

3. Have a call: Once you’ve chosen a vet, everyone needs to get on the same page. I schedule a call with me, my vet, and the PPE vet. I spend 30 seconds telling the new vet what kind of rider I am, what my experience is, and what my expectations are for the new horse. Then we talked about what is included in the PPE vet’s package, and what we need to add on to that. My vet will then discuss any concerns from the video/earlier x-rays, and forward all of that to the PPE vet. I usually try to give the PPE vet an understanding of my tolerance for certain problems, i.e. “I’m picky. I won’t run from a .5 flexion in a hock, but expect no detectable lameness in straight line, circle or under saddle.”

4. PPE: I typically request a phone call at the conclusion of the clinical exam. We discuss the results of the exam, flexions, and under saddle work, and jointly decide whether to proceed to x-rays. Sometimes this is an easy decision. Other times I will conference my vet in to help decide whether X finding should or shouldn’t be a deal breaker.

5. If we’ve made it to the end, I usually get a quick call saying generally looks good or concerns about the __ x-ray. All of the x-rays get sent to my vet, along with any videos that were taken during the exam. We all have a call to discuss the findings, then a decision is made and the horse is paid for. I typically receive a full write-up and a disc of the x-rays a month or two later.[/QUOTE]

[saddleup]

I have done it in the past, but after the last time I won’t do it again. But it was my fault for not being specific enough. And the suggestion to have the vet stick the horse and confirm it’s height is EXCELLENT. My 15.3 hh horse turned out to be 15.0 hh and he’s now for sale. I’m 5’9" and feel like I’m riding a pony. When he got off the trailer I was pretty disappointed. My own fault, I know.

I drove 10 hours one time to try a horse, liked him, and went with the vet they had recommended to do the PPE. The vet was very honest with me, showed me his concerns from the x-rays, and I decided not to get the horse. The owner and his trainer were livid and were chewing out the vet as I drove away, towing my empty horse trailer behind me. Oh well. At the start of the exam the vet said to the owner and trainer “Just remember that today I work for HER, not you.”

[cbv]

I have done most PPE’s with owner’s vet – in one case by the vet who owned the horse – in most cases I knew the vet and he/she was or had been my vet as well. In other cases the sellers had good reputations and in one case provided all records for the horse. I never suspected the vet’s of collusion with the owners. And figured owner’s vets knew the horses best.

In one I did on phone, vet verbally made clear at beginning of vetting that she was regular vet for trainer and did I want to continue (even though I made the arrangements knowing she was). Again I had no problem with vetting.