Not feeding 'concentrates' or pre-made feeds?

[JB]

@Palm Beach

This is not correct. A hard working sport horse in a demanding discipline such as racing, eventing, endurance etc absolutely can have visible ribs and be in excellent condition. Excess weight is a detriment to the performance of that horse and increases the chance of injury.

I did say some of the last visible ribs. A horse with all ribs visible is too thin. It may be they simply cannot eat any more calories to meet their serious work load, but it’s too thin.

But that wasn’t even the point - those horses aren’t a BCS 5, which is what warrior claims her vet told her. A horse can be a high 4 and still be very healthy and conditioned for hard work.

At a BCS 5, “Ribs cannot be visually distinguished, but can be easily felt”

@warriorhorse - your horse is fine, ignore the fat worshippers. They do not understand sports medicine or health if they think 25 pounds of fat is healthy and a good thing for a sport horse. Absolutely listen to your vet, and ignore any anonymous internet poster with no credentials who tells you your vet is wrong…

Absolutely NOT a fat worshipper here and I don’t see anyone else on this thread as one either. I want lean horses. Far too many horses are too overweight. It’s epidemic.

[warriorhorse]

Thanks everyone, I will use quest plus next time horse needs wormed. Horse is young and plenty of energy for work asked of him. I will consult vet for any help needed from now on.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

I did say some of the last visible ribs. A horse with all ribs visible is too thin. It may be they simply cannot eat any more calories to meet their serious work load, but it’s too thin.

But that wasn’t even the point - those horses aren’t a BCS 5, which is what warrior claims her vet told her. A horse can be a high 4 and still be very healthy and conditioned for hard work.

At a BCS 5, “Ribs cannot be visually distinguished, but can be easily felt”

Absolutely NOT a fat worshipper here and I don’t see anyone else on this thread as one either. I want lean horses. Far too many horses are too overweight. It’s epidemic.

Disagree.

“Conformational differences between horses may make certain criteria within each score difficult to apply to every animal. In these instances, those areas influenced by conformation should be discounted, but not ignored when determining the condition score.”

I think the person who actually looked at the horse is best able to determine the body condition score. In addition, the score was developed to determine weight for mares when trying to get them pregnant. 5 is “ideal” for getting a mare pregnant. The OP has a gelding she is using for endurance.

[x-halt-salute]

@Palm Beach

Disagree.

“Conformational differences between horses may make certain criteria within each score difficult to apply to every animal. In these instances, those areas influenced by conformation should be discounted, but not ignored when determining the condition score.”

I think the person who actually looked at the horse is best able to determine the body condition score. In addition, the score was developed to determine weight for mares when trying to get them pregnant. 5 is “ideal” for getting a mare pregnant. The OP has a gelding she is using for endurance.

Are you talking about OP or about the poster who hijacked the thread, who claims to have a horse that mostly works a cattle feedlot?

What you quoted suggests to me that you shouldn’t completely ignore prominent ribs when assigning a condition score to a horse that may have more flesh in other regions. And regardless of the origins of the Henneke score, it has been adopted as a standard body condition assessment tool for horses generally. There is no endurance-specific BCS assessment scale. But there has been research that shows that Henneke BCS (within range 1.5 to 5.5) is positively associated with completion of endurance races and completed distance of eliminated horses. So if this poster really does have an endurance horse, it would make sense to question whether visually obvious ribs are consistent with ideal conditioning for that activity.

But that’s beside the point. Nobody who’s commented recently is a “fat worshipper”. Not to mention the absurdity of accusing JB of posting with anything other than solid science at hand and the horse’s best interest in mind.

And when a poster just happens to show up on the same day another was banned who argued under multiple alters for all sorts of abhorrent things (e.g. not feeding horses when money is tight and sending horses to slaughter if they should be diagnosed with metabolic issues), and when that poster uses the same unusual grammar and makes the same vanishingly rare punctuation mistakes, and when that poster seems focused on the very same pet topics as many prior incarnations of a malignant and oft-banned poster, I think it’s fair to ask pointed questions. I don’t think anyone actually believes that this horse with round hindquarters, a huge belly, and prominent ribs, who works a feedlot 3 hours/day and subsists on hay, grass, and lots of apples, is anything but a figment of the poster’s rather active imagination.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

TC Lite has a feeding rate of 1-2lb per 500lb. That’s minimally 2lb for a 1000lb horse. Any less, and it’s under-feeding, just as it would be under-feeding to use 4lb of a regular feed meant to be fed at minimally 6lb for a given weight.

It’s not a ration balancer. Its feeding is between that of a RB, and a regular feed.

No, JB. Read the instructions.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition.

[Palm_Beach]

@x-halt-salute

Are you talking about OP or about the poster who hijacked the thread, who claims to have a horse that mostly works a cattle feedlot?

What you quoted suggests to me that you shouldn’t completely ignore prominent ribs when assigning a condition score to a horse that may have more flesh in other regions. And regardless of the origins of the Henneke score, it has been adopted as a standard body condition assessment tool for horses generally. There is no endurance-specific BCS assessment scale. But there has been research that shows that Henneke BCS (within range 1.5 to 5.5) is positively associated with completion of endurance races and completed distance of eliminated horses. So if this poster really does have an endurance horse, it would make sense to question whether visually obvious ribs are consistent with ideal conditioning for that activity.

But that’s beside the point. Nobody who’s commented recently is a “fat worshipper”. Not to mention the absurdity of accusing JB of posting with anything other than solid science at hand and the horse’s best interest in mind.

And when a poster just happens to show up on the same day another was banned who argued under multiple alters for all sorts of abhorrent things (e.g. not feeding horses when money is tight and sending horses to slaughter if they should be diagnosed with metabolic issues), and when that poster uses the same unusual grammar and makes the same vanishingly rare punctuation mistakes, and when that poster seems focused on the very same pet topics as many prior incarnations of a malignant and oft-banned poster, I think it’s fair to ask pointed questions. I don’t think anyone actually believes that this horse with round hindquarters, a huge belly, and prominent ribs, who works a feedlot 3 hours/day and subsists on hay, grass, and lots of apples, is anything but a figment of the poster’s rather active imagination.

The person who owns the horse described “somewhat visible” ribs, NOT “prominent” ribs. And if you think that an anonymous internet person is better at assessing the condition of a horse than the vet that actually looked at the horse, well, I don’t know what to say about that. You are easily impressed. And you also misinterpreted the study you quoted - it says POSITIVE ASSOCIATION, not CAUSAL RELATION. They are not the same. And it did not say “IDEAL CONDITION.” You need to actually read the entire study including the conclusions, which you did not do.

WRT your last paragraph, I don’t stalk posters so I don’t know who came and went. I have no interest is obsessing over that kind of stuff.

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

No, JB. Read the instructions.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition.

Uh, yeah. And directly above that it says this.

MATURE HORSES: Feed 1-2 pounds of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight per day. If more than 4 pounds of Triple Crown Lite is required to maintain the horse’s desired body condition a switch to another Triple Crown formulation such as Low Starch may be necessary.

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/lite/

[MissAriel]

@Palm Beach

No, JB. Read the instructions.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition.

Palm Beach, the directions state:

"MATURE HORSES: Feed 1-2 pounds of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight per day. If more than 4 pounds of Triple Crown Lite is required to maintain the horse’s desired body condition a switch to another Triple Crown formulation such as Low Starch may be necessary.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition."

So an average horse at 1000 lbs they would require 2-4 lbs, and a small pony at 500 lb would require 1 lb, nominally. If you are feeding half that amount (ie 1lb for a 1000 lb horse), you are getting half the calories but also half the nutrition.

Maybe yours are having it made up in forage and other feed, or not, but please stop insisting the way you are feeding is according to the manufacturers instructions when it isn’t. I’m not saying it isn’t working for your horses, but what you are saying could be confusing to people coming here for information.

[Palm_Beach]

@MissAriel

Palm Beach, the directions state:

"MATURE HORSES: Feed 1-2 pounds of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight per day. If more than 4 pounds of Triple Crown Lite is required to maintain the horse’s desired body condition a switch to another Triple Crown formulation such as Low Starch may be necessary.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition."

So an average horse at 1000 lbs they would require 2-4 lbs, and a small pony at 500 lb would require 1 lb, nominally. If you are feeding half that amount (ie 1lb for a 1000 lb horse), you are getting half the calories but also half the nutrition.

Maybe yours are having it made up in forage and other feed, or not, but please stop insisting the way you are feeding is according to the manufacturers instructions when it isn’t. I’m not saying it isn’t working for your horses, but what you are saying could be confusing to people coming here for information.

So the mature 1000 pound horse gets 2 pounds - where is my math wrong?

And the 800 pound pony gets 1 pound - which has been adjusted down per their instructions and a conversation with a rep- where is my math wrong???

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

So the mature 1000 pound horse gets 2 pounds - where is my math wrong?

And the 800 pound pony gets 1 pound - which has been adjusted down per their instructions and a conversation with a rep- where is my math wrong???

You said JB was wrong here:

@JB

TC Lite has a feeding rate of 1-2lb per 500lb. That’s minimally 2lb for a 1000lb horse. Any less, and it’s under-feeding, just as it would be under-feeding to use 4lb of a regular feed meant to be fed at minimally 6lb for a given weight.

It’s not a ration balancer. Its feeding is between that of a RB, and a regular feed.

@Palm Beach

No, JB. Read the instructions.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition.

JB’s post is 100% correct. TC Lite has a feeding rate of 1-2 pounds per 500 lbs of horse weight, exactly as she said it did. That is A MINIMUM 2 pounds per day for a 1000 pound horse, just as she said. The upper end would be 4 pounds a day.

You tracking now?

[Palm_Beach]

@Simkie

You said JB was wrong here:

JB’s post is 100% correct. TC Lite has a feeding rate of 1-2 pounds per 500 lbs of horse weight, exactly as she said it did. That is AT MINIMUM 2 pounds per day for a 1000 pound horse, just as she said. The upper end would be 4 pounds a day.

You tracking now?

You need to read the instructions.

PONIES AND MINIATURE HORSES: Feed 1 pound of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight and adjust feeding rate to maintain desired body condition.

So 1 pound per day for a 800 pound pony is not underfeeding.

You tracking now?

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

You need to read the instructions.

Are you kidding me??? I COPIED the instructions directly from the website above. :rolleyes:

JB is 100% correct in her post. You said she was wrong. She’s not.

[Palm_Beach]

@Simkie

Are you kidding me??? I COPIED the instructions directly from the website above. :rolleyes:

JB is 100% correct in her post. You said she was wrong. She’s not.

Simkie, you have to read all the instructions not just some of them.

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

Simkie, you have to read all the instructions not just some of them.

Uh-huh. Same to you. You copied the pony portion when you stated JB was wrong. Palm Beach, you have to read all the instructions, not just some of them.

[Palm_Beach]

@Simkie

Uh-huh. Same to you. You copied the pony portion when you stated JB was wrong. Palm Beach, you have to read all the instructions, not just some of them.

What instructions did I not read, or are you just repeating for the sake of repeating?

[x-halt-salute]

@Palm Beach

The person who owns the horse described “somewhat visible” ribs, NOT “prominent” ribs. And if you think that an anonymous internet person is better at assessing the condition of a horse than the vet that actually looked at the horse, well, I don’t know what to say about that. You are easily impressed. And you also misinterpreted the study you quoted - it says POSITIVE ASSOCIATION, not CAUSAL RELATION. They are not the same. And it did not say “IDEAL CONDITION.” You need to actually read the entire study including the conclusions, which you did not do.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

It’s probably not worth trying to have a conversation with someone who seems to have an iffy relationship with science but nevertheless feels the need to assert their intellectual superiority in all caps. You can argue with the semantics of my extremely brief summary of the practical implications of a more complex research study all you want. It doesn’t change the fact (which you cannot miss if you read the full paper) that the researchers conclude that Henneke BCS is an important factor in endurance horse performance.

Did the same in depth reading that allowed you to regurgitate the old “correlation does not equal causation” adage also allow you to pick up on the multiple citations of research that demonstrates that the average BCS in some of the other “demanding disciplines” you list is actually as high as 5-5.5? Or the other cited empirical studies that found relatively high average BCS in finishers in other endurance horse samples? Did you really read that article and come away from it thinking that the findings were anything but supportive of the hypothesis that horses with higher body condition scores (within the attested range) perform better in endurance riding?

As for some anonymous internet person being able to better assess a horse’s condition than a vet, I imagine that is indeed possible. Especially when the horse is an imaginary horse. It is less about being easily impressed by internet denizens (though, frankly, I’m happy to admit I’m impressed by JB) and more to do with not being easily impressed by a DVM diploma if the vet’s standard of practice or ongoing education are poor.

I don’t understand why you persist in arguing with me, Simkie, JB, and MissAriel. You seem very angry about the empirical evidence and our comments about it, but I don’t see you providing any real counter-arguments or empirical support for your own claims.

[x-halt-salute]

@Simkie

Uh-huh. Same to you. You copied the pony portion when you stated JB was wrong. Palm Beach, you have to read all the instructions, not just some of them.

Selective reading seems to be a pattern here.

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

What instructions did I not read, or are you just repeating for the sake of repeating?

Obviously this right here, if you insist that JB is incorrect in her statement that TC Lite should be fed at a rate of 1-2 pounds per every 500.

MATURE HORSES: Feed 1-2 pounds of Triple Crown Lite per 500 pounds of body weight per day. If more than 4 pounds of Triple Crown Lite is required to maintain the horse’s desired body condition a switch to another Triple Crown formulation such as Low Starch may be necessary.

Or do you mean to say that JB was INCOMPLETE in her statement? She didn’t list the pony feeding instructions, no. Do you realize that incorrect and incomplete are two different things?

No surprise that she didn’t include the pony directions. No ponies have been mentioned on this thread until you dragged us down this merry little derail :lol:

Just how big is your pony, Palm Beach? 800#s, but how tall? How about a pic of the wee little bugger? (Or are you just going with the “pony” directions because he’s less than 1000 pounds??)

[RegentLion]

I could be wrong, but I think “1 lb per 500 lbs” is the minimum. Adjusting down because the horse doesn’t need the calories means they’re also not getting the nutrition.

i read the directions as “minimum 1 lb per 500, go up from there if needed to a max of 4lbs” not “use less than 1 per 500 and call it good because they’re fat”

[Palm_Beach]

@RegentLion

I could be wrong, but I think “1 lb per 500 lbs” is the minimum. Adjusting down because the horse doesn’t need the calories means they’re also not getting the nutrition.

i read the directions as “minimum 1 lb per 500, go up from there if needed to a max of 4lbs” not “use less than 1 per 500 and call it good because they’re fat”

Per TC, you can adjust down as low as 1 pound for a pony or mini and they are fine.