Not feeding 'concentrates' or pre-made feeds?

[Palm_Beach]

@x-halt-salute

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

It’s probably not worth trying to have a conversation with someone who seems to have an iffy relationship with science but nevertheless feels the need to assert their intellectual superiority in all caps. You can argue with the semantics of my extremely brief summary of the practical implications of a more complex research study all you want. It doesn’t change the fact (which you cannot miss if you read the full paper) that the researchers conclude that Henneke BCS is an important factor in endurance horse performance.

Did the same in depth reading that allowed you to regurgitate the old “correlation does not equal causation” adage also allow you to pick up on the multiple citations of research that demonstrates that the average BCS in some of the other “demanding disciplines” you list is actually as high as 5-5.5? Or the other cited empirical studies that found relatively high average BCS in finishers in other endurance horse samples? Did you really read that article and come away from it thinking that the findings were anything but supportive of the hypothesis that horses with higher body condition scores (within the attested range) perform better in endurance riding?

As for some anonymous internet person being able to better assess a horse’s condition than a vet, I imagine that is indeed possible. Especially when the horse is an imaginary horse. It is less about being easily impressed by internet denizens (though, frankly, I’m happy to admit I’m impressed by JB) and more to do with not being easily impressed by a DVM diploma if the vet’s standard of practice or ongoing education are poor.

I don’t understand why you persist in arguing with me, Simkie, JB, and MissAriel. You seem very angry about the empirical evidence and our comments about it, but I don’t see you providing any real counter-arguments or empirical support for your own claims.

Not angry at all, you all seem to be having an issue with semantics.

And the study does not conclue a causal relationship between body score condition and completion of endurance rides, it notes that there is a correlation between the two. The horse in question has a body score of 5 per a vet, although you all, despite not ever having seen the horse, insist that the horse is too thin. That is what makes no sense.

[x-halt-salute]

@Palm Beach

And the study does not conclue a causal relationship between body score condition and completion of endurance rides, it notes that there is a correlation between the two. The horse in question has a body score of 5 per a vet, although you all, despite not ever having seen the horse, insist that the horse is too thin. That is what makes no sense.

Why perpetuate arguments in which the evidence is not on your side? To what end are you fighting? To continue to support the absurd position that Henneke BCS is not relevant for anything other than breeding mares? So that you can tell internet people not to draw their own conclusions about the physical condition of a probably imaginary horse based on textual descriptions? I don’t understand how this could be so important to you that it’s worth sacrificing your credibility.

“Important factor in predicting endurance performance” is the authors’ wording (Garlinghouse and Burrell 1999, 594). If you actually read the article, you’d note that the authors have no problem inferring a direction of causality in the relationship they find between these variables. I don’t want to burst your bubble about how much more complex science is in practice than the Stats 101 course you continue to quote. But in many cases it is entirely reasonable to infer causation from a correlation. Consider the alternatives:

Do you believe that the distance completed by a horse at the end of the race determined (caused) the BCS of the horse before starting the race? If so, can I borrow your time machine?
Do you believe that a variable that was not included in the study design but is tightly correlated with BCS caused the pattern in finishing results? If so, what is that common causal variable and how have you diagnosed the existence and direction of all relevant causal links?

Based on the empirical evidence in that article, the most logical inference is that body condition, as measured on the Henneke scale, plays a role in determining endurance performance. Which is how the authors interpreted the results. With references to a wider body of literature that supports that conclusion. And the blessing of peer reviewers and journal editors who are also scientists. If scientists never made these kinds of inferences, veterinarians would show up to lameness exams and say things like “well, he has an inflamed DDFT and is 3/5 positive to low limb flexion, but since association doesn’t entail causation I’m afraid I can’t tell you why your horse is lame”. Informed inference is part of science, and you should (re-?)read that article or maybe just stop trying to argue with scientists about basic tenets of scientific reasoning if this concept has so far eluded you.

Even if the authors had merely noted an association (my word, not theirs), and not made any inferences about causality, that would still be sufficient evidence of a link between Henneke BCS and athletic performance to serve as a strike against your frankly outlandish suggestion that BCS is irrelevant to anything but the breeding of mares. Not to mention all of the other literature out there that supports the idea that Henneke BCS is a useful instrument for assessing equine fitness for a variety of purposes and that average BCS for high performing horses in a number of disciplines tends to be about 5. Ready to move on yet? Even Tazycat has somehow found the good sense to walk away from the ridiculous claims upthread.

[Lyssabd]

I have a 14 year old Perch/TB cross who is an easy keeper. He’s in moderate to heavy work, and I was still having trouble keeping his weight down since the feed provided at my barn was very high in sugar. In January, I switched him over to a diet of beet pulp and alfalfa pellets, both soaked. He gets one pound of each two times a day. He lives outside full time, there’s grass but barely, and he eats a lot of hay. He typically gets 3-4 big flakes at each mealtime plus more thrown intermittently throughout the day.

My old trainer was a huge proponent of non-concentrate diets. She had all her horses on alfalfa based diets, but did supplement with vitamins/minerals to support whole nutrition so they weren’t missing anything. Good luck, as long as you find a good balance, you won’t regret it!