Novice/Beginner Novice Competitors

[trubandloki]

@beowulf

It’s interesting to me that “perennial BN riders” is brought up - IIRC, this was also brought up in our last COTH convo about promoting grassroot eventing. I don’t agree that USEA is blameless in the culture shift and level creep. It should be perfectly fine that a rider picks a level they are competent at and stays at that level "perennially’ – USEA and many coaches seem to have this “must climb the levels” mentality that in part is to blame for so much of the level creep we see at the lower levels. There really should be nothing wrong with someone being a lifetime BN rider, and yet it is often referred to negatively.

Thank you for saying this.
I agree totally.

[subk]

In my opinion almost every horse at BN–whether at a local farm event, a big venue event, or a championship should go clean on XC. BN SHOULD be a dressage show. Goodness knows there are enough people who would get better overall results down the road if they spent a little more time early in a horse’s career getting a solid dressage base. Encouraging that–while at the same time building XC confidence–would be something worth our organization striving for.

I get a ton of information when I look at results of a BN division and see 1/2 or even 1/3 of the division with problems. That’s an embarrassment to the organizers and I’m not taking my young horses to those events. The USEA ought to be calling out these organizers for not meeting their stated goals of the division. I don’t understand it–like I don’t understand why riders train with verbally abusive coaches. Why would anyone take a green horse to event where the organizers WANT him to have a stop?

I have zero problems with “perennial BN riders” but changing the requirements for what seems to be a handful of riders is being done at the expense of the green/young horse. That’s wrong and its bad horsemanship on the part of the USEA to be lead down that path. Eventing is not a sport for every rider and never will be, but we really have to do some serious self evaluation when trying to be something for every rider means we don’t prioritize the needs and best interests of horses first.

I’m a decrepit old amateur that rode to the top levels eons ago, and now I mostly prepare young horses to event. While I’ve competed all over the southeast in last couple years I’ve almost given up in running my horses BN at recognized competitions traveling mostly to schooling competitions where at least if they are going to run a “modern” course I can school it beforehand. Congratulations, you’ve kept the entries of the perennial BN rider, but you lost mine. I LOVE that the USEA isn’t getting my money at this level–they don’t deserve it.

[OTTBs]

@Gardenhorse

I’m also not a huge fan of the bright blue ones - I’d prefer more natural colors at BN.

That and the Fiesta jumps. I’ve never seen colors like these in about 20 years of BN/N eventing.

I think it would be nice if there were some options on BN (maybe even Starter) courses. Two jumps side by side, one set of flags, and you could jump a more challenging fence or one less so. I wanted to take my horse out at Starter this year since we’re out of shape. I changed my mind when I saw the event I was shooting for only had 10 jumps on Starter, and I was afraid they’d all be logs. It’d be nice to know I’d at least have the option to jump an honest 2’3" fence on course.

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

Looking at the BN and N courses they look very similar to the Area VII championship from 2018 but a bit more challenging. The only jump that gave me real pause was the fan jump. Depending on how the light catches it, it could be quite spooky. There was a table at a show in area VII that due to how it was constructed always caused trouble in certain light.

In area VII we had blue houses and sheep feeders, a “corner” (it rides like a coop or table), fake ditches and walls, open oxars and baby treckaners (I’m sorry I can’t spell) with a proper baby ditch under them. Every venue had their scary jump at each level. Some had more challenging stadium courses. Some had challenging dressage locations (who thinks putting BN dressage next to the show jump arena is a good idea?). I personally don’t mind the level creep. I want to have those challenging jumps at the lower levels so my horses can learn how to jump them while it’s awkward rather than dangerous. Also if you have a rider who just wants to be at beginner novice and get those awesome pictures, give them the jumps to do that.

[trubandloki]

@horseshorseshorseshorses

I personally don’t mind the level creep.

As someone who will always be lower (lowest) level, I am not a fan of scope creep. If I wanted to do bigger and scarier things I would move up a level. Imagine being the person doing this level for the very first time.
I do like the idea of learning to do scary on a small scale and all that. But scary does not belong at the lowest level. Confidence boosting belongs at the lowest level. I suppose having some fence options would solve the problem of allowing some scope creep and leaving the level what the level is for those who truly want to do the level.

@OTTBs is your starter level really 2’3"? Or were you just wanting to jump larger than the level?

[Willesdon]

Outsider looking in here, but shouldn’t the USEA be ensuring common standards across all areas and regions?

Just as a comment, BE introduced BE80 as a minimum level with 80cm jumps and a BE-accredited trainer on hand to help participating riders with the course walks and answering any questions the newbies had. Now, professional riders are running at BE80 - which seems entirely counter to the initial intention of introducing people to the sport

[afjordlife]

I would personally love to see a recognized intro level that was only open to AA/JR’s who had never shown at upper levels. I think some of the level creep is because events are having to cater for both pros schooling green horses at BN, who want more challenges that will prepare their babies to move up, as well as true amateurs who might be competing at a recognized show for the first time. I realize they are often placed in different divisions, but they run the same XC course. Creating a level not open to pros at all would I think mitigate some of this.

[Jealoushe]

The cost associated with this would be a nightmare. If the courses are too much riders can do down to Starter or try schooling horse trials instead.

They seem a lot more plentiful in the US than we have here in Ontario Canada.

[trubandloki]

@Jealoushe

The cost associated with this would be a nightmare. If the courses are too much riders can do down to Starter or try schooling horse trials instead.

I think the point at @afjordlife is trying to make is that there needs to some place that the scope creep does not take over and make the division not beginner friendly.

Up a bit in the thread someone was complaining that scope creep is fine and they want to see more larger fences in the intro division… (which to me is the unrecognized division below BN).

[Highflyer1]

I actually have found that the pros are less likely to be the ones complaining about it, it tends to be people who have done bn for a while who want to see more challenging stuff. Most of the pros I know do 1-2 bn events (if any) and then move up.

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

There are classes like that. From appendix 3:

RIDER ® - Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Modified or Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition; a Training Rider may have completed an event at Modified or Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition.

There are also Amateur classes but those are harder to find imo.

[Jealoushe]

I mean eventing is eventing. It is never going to be made for beginners or nervous riders like you can make the hunters or dressage. It’s not safe for riders who aren’t competent to be out there trying to get over solid fences. If you can’t handle the starter fences then do derbies or short courses. I just don’t think it can get much more dumbed down.

I used to run short courses that were just like this. Perfect and inviting but everything was tiny and safe to walk/trot over, but had variety like houses, stone walls, tires, banks, etc.

[Gardenhorse]

There are standards, but they are pretty broad. Some events/courses are at the upper end of every one of the standards, while others are at the lower end. Some events vary the difficulty of their courses with the season - easier earlier on in the season, harder later in the season. One event in our area has two events on back-to-back weekends, and advertises the second one as a move-up with easier courses. I also don’t think there is a different standard for championship courses. So, technically a mid-season course could be as difficult as the AEC course if the organizer wanted it to be.

I think the issue is mainly just that as the number of people competing in USEA events has increased, the diversity of what they are looking for has also increased, and it is always harder to keep a larger number of people happy. BN was originally an introduction to people to new to the sport, which was why you didn’t have to be a USCTA/USEA member to compete in BN for many years.

You now have people who want BN to be an intro to new riders or green horses, as the USEA states it is intended to be. But you also have a large number of people who never want to go above BN height, but are comfortable with a wider range of jumps/combinations and want something more than logs and coops. You also have people who want to move up, but want to practice some of the technical aspects they’re going to see at higher levels at lower fence heights so they want more complicated BN courses, especially at the end of the season. I don’t know that there’s really an answer - I think that in some places there is enough diversity of courses/venues that there is something for everyone, but in some places there probably isn’t.

[MsRidiculous]

I personally thought the BN and N looked very appropriate. Honestly if anything the N looks a bit soft to me for a Championship - my 4yo jumped a more technical N at Chatt in just a regular HT.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on brightly colored jumps, considering horses don’t see color the way we do. I swear they startle humans way more than horses (as do a lot of things).

[frugalannie]

@Willesdon

Just as a comment, BE introduced BE80 as a minimum level with 80cm jumps and a BE-accredited trainer on hand to help participating riders with the course walks and answering any questions the newbies had. Now, professional riders are running at BE80 - which seems entirely counter to the initial intention of introducing people to the sport

Just have to jump in and say I love that BE does this. Having a accredited coach around to help those whose own coach may not be there is BRILLIANT. And the quality of person they have can be outstanding (like Eric Smiley, who told me about this program years ago)

[McGurk]

@Jealoushe

I mean eventing is eventing. It is never going to be made for beginners or nervous riders like you can make the hunters or dressage. It’s not safe for riders who aren’t competent to be out there trying to get over solid fences. If you can’t handle the starter fences then do derbies or short courses. I just don’t think it can get much more dumbed down.

I used to run short courses that were just like this. Perfect and inviting but everything was tiny and safe to walk/trot over, but had variety like houses, stone walls, tires, banks, etc.

Wow. I think that’s a prescription for the sport to die.

Yes, eventing has a steeper learning curve than the hunters or straight dressage, and the level of competence needed to compete safely and successfully is higher, but I absolutely believe there is a place for “beginners and nervous riders.” I coached a bunch of them around intro and BN at unrecognized trials. I also volunteer at my local unrecognized trial, where a good third of the competitors are on leased school horses that they ride once or twice a week. Some are a little nervous! Are you telling me there’s no room in the sport for them? Or only room in the sport for them after they’ve fallen in love it, taken more lessons, bought their own horse, etc…? But how or why would they fall in love with the sport, then?

What is truly the harm in “dumbing down” starter, intro or beginner novice? It’s not like that affects the levels above Modified. If there’s a demand for a level with a 6" bank, no water and a 6" ditch and a bunch of logs, why not offer it?

[OTTBs]

Just checked–Area IV, Otter Creek is 2’4", Catalpa is 2’. Thought they were both 2’3"…

I’ve never run Starter in my life. Just considering this year since my horse sort of fell over a stadium fence last year and maybe we’re getting too old for this.

[OTTBs]

@MsRidiculous

I wouldn’t get too hung up on brightly colored jumps, considering horses don’t see color the way we do. I swear they startle humans way more than horses (as do a lot of things).

I’m no expert on horse vision, but I’ve heard they see brown and (natural) green best. So it makes me wonder how poorly they see the brightly colored ones.

@McGurk

Yes, eventing has a steeper learning curve than the hunters or straight dressage, and the level of competence needed to compete safely and successfully is higher, but I absolutely believe there is a place for “beginners and nervous riders.”

This made me think of my own beginning in eventing. Back when BN was unrecognized, my second recognized HT (first ended in elimination on XC)… Me and my first OTTB (first horse actually) who I trained myself… he was so wild in the XC warmup I told my friends I was afraid I would die. We went out there and he did a perfect hunter round. I bet my smile was twice the width of my face when we finished, and an eventer was born.

[mdp9]

The BN/N courses look completely appropriate to me. I agree with @MsRidiculous, what we humans find scary (colors!) doesn’t always register for the horse. I’m in Area II and we have lots of bright white jumps, tables, etc. on BN/N courses.

My take would be that anyone going to AEC at BN has probably seen their fair share of XC courses and want to rock around a fun course. I love a lower level course that incorporates mild terrain (mounds, a little downhill jump, a jump placed between trees) to give the riders extra challenge without maxxing out the horse’s scope.

To answer the original question, the BN 3 Day is a great way to have something new to work towards! Loch Moy Farm in Maryland offers this. Waredaca in Maryland has a Novice 3 Day. Do other areas have that?

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

Spokane Sport Horse HT has BN3D for their fall show. It was super duper fun to watch in 2019. They are based in area 7 and that is the last recognized show for that area. Something that people can really work their way up to.