Novice/Beginner Novice Competitors

That is an interesting question that raises several issues. At what point should people start to compete? Is going to a show really appropriate for everyone or should some minimum level of skill be achieved at home first? Does success in a ‘dumbed-down’ class provide sufficient experience to make it safe and appropriate for a rider to move up a level? Or do the results flatter to deceive? We all recognize that eventing is a high risk sport that demands skill and judgement in both riding and horsemanship yet simultaneously there is pressure to make it more user-friendly, easier, less demanding so as to encourage more participation. Aren’t those two views basically at odds with each other?

If you consistently lower standards, how do standards ever improve? To be the best one must compete against the best. Everyone winning ribbons for the cutest pony, the best technique over a twig or for the slowest xc round possible without the horse dropping dead from old age, whilst possibly entertaining for the participants, does not translate into winning Olympic medals or 5* events. Name an American rider to make the time xc at a top international level in the last - ohhhh - decade or so.

So from this rant, it is apparent that I believe dumbing down does not make good eventers - either human or equine - and that so doing does influence the higher levels of the sport too.

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Dumbing down does not make for good horsewomen or horsemen in any discipline. I still firmly believe that participation in eventing offers a fantastic (indeed I would say best) opportunity to develop into a true horsewoman/horseman/horseperson…oh heck you know what I mean. :slight_smile:

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I agree that this is a really interesting question. I, personally, don’t ever want eventing to have recognized cross rail classes. On the other hand, how do you get more people into the sport, especially in an era where (at least in the US) many people can have ridden for years without ever learning how to canter a horse across an open field.

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Why is an accessible level to the average rider/horse combo called “dumbing down”?

We don’t ridicule people for playing D leagues in hockey and never striving to be an A-lister. It isn’t an issue in other sports, where people find the level they’re competent at and stay there.

Why is it seen that way in Eventing?

That’s not to say I think that a cross rail class in Eventing should be offered. I don’t. But you would never catch me insulting BN riders by referring to them as “perennially at BN” or riding a “dumbed down level”. That is our bread and butter, and we should be striving for ways to make the sport more accessible to them.

Just about every other horse sport out there has classes at a recognized level that are lower in height (or in other ridden requirements) than BN. I don’t think the issue is people at the “dumbed down levels”.

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Great post @beowulf.

And, why is it dumbing down when all that was wanted is limited scope creep?

Make BN courses BN courses. If you want to add something harder for those people getting ready to move up, or those trainers who are insulted to have to ride a clients horse at BN, make fence options. But leave BN courses as a welcoming course for people entering the sport (or people who enjoy this sport but know their limit.)

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100% agree that courses suitable for the “average” combo should be available. 100% agree that “average” riders are the massive majority of members in any country that has eventing and their needs should most certainly be met. They are both the backbone of the sport and the feeder for higher level riders. I agree that being rude about perennial BN riders is, at best, unhelpful: they are doing their thing, running at a level they enjoy and having fun with a horse is a very good thing. But what is the average rider? At what point should riders be able to participate in an eventing competition? What concerns me is that riders who lack very basic levels of skill, such as balance in the saddle or the confidence to canter outside an arena, compete in eventing classes that are built to suit their incompetence: “dumbed down”. IMO, trotting over ten small logs scattered in a field is a schooling exercise on a saintly horse is not an eventing competition. But organisers will seek to put on classes that fill because it gives them a chance to recover some of their costs. There was recently a very extensive debate in another thread about moving up levels and proposed new MERs - which I can’t find right now.

When Eventing started in the UK in the 1940s, the entry level was called “novice”. Now there are five competitive levels below novice and some hybrid variations in between. How much lower can it go? I was sitting at a water fence for an unaffiliated 70cm show, fence 12, and we were doing nothing for most of the class because the majority of riders were eliminated, through cumulative refusals or falls, before they reached fence four. Several then couldn’t get their horses through a gateway between 5 and 6. If the saintly horses did reach us, most then gave up as the water was literally a step too far. Completion rate was about 10%. Don’t know about the riders but for the officials it was profoundly disheartening.

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There’s an app you can download called CVSimulator where you can view things through different types of vision to see the color. I always use it on brightly colored fences and they’re pretty much never actually bright with how horses see color. They see yellow and blue the best, but largely most things that look super bright and colorful to us just look like contrasting shades in a blue/yellow/greenish hue to them.

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I mean, the local schooling H/J shows now have ground pole classes. It’s getting a little ridiculous, IMO.

You want more experience you need to go schooling more. I think the current intro level is plenty enough inviting for horse and rider. Anything less than that, the individual needs to take more lessons and get more saddle time.

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I just flipped through the course, imagining riding it on my late mare (current mare would not be a fun ride on that one lol). The only jump that made me think “ride really forward” was 8, because she’s going to not be looking at the fence and will instead be looking to the water.

The rest look quite welcoming for a pair who had qualified for the AECs to start with.

The comment about levels started based on scope creep. Not that we needed to make a ground poles division in eventing.

At the most common event near me, the intro division (2’ max) recently only had one log jump. The rest was just smaller versions of larger jumps. So the intro division, at least here, is not just a course of logs.

Again, the whole point is scope creep and how the lowest rated division was originally made to be inviting to newbies and now it is less inviting to newbies because of scope creep. No need to dumb it down, just stop the scope creep. If you want to move up a level then school that level, don’t turn BN into a slightly less challenging N. Leave BN as BN.

And I admit, I am shocked at some of the posters who are all guns a blazing about scope creep making things dangerous at other levels but are fine with it at BN because how dare someone be at BN to start with.

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And the scope creep comment started based on the AEC BN course, which looks like a totally appropriate BN course to me.

Where is the scope creep?

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This sounds like a schooling availability problem or maybe a coaching problem. I fail to see how this scenario is a course design problem or how it somehow miraculously trickles up to the upper levels of the sport.

Eventing has changed because the world has changed. Horse ownership has gotten more expensive and exclusive, horsemanship in general has declined because fewer people take care of their own horses or come up as barn rats and open land on which to gallop and school is getting harder and harder to find.

Many people that I know who are eventing BN or the unrecognized divisions below it have VERY limited opportunities to school XC or to do true conditioning work. Schooling water is a particular bugaboo, most people have to haul out to an eventing venue and pay a schooling fee and possibly an instructor to school water, ditches, banks - or really, anything other than what they can set up in their horse’s paddock themselves.

I could also make the argument that your average working adult can not spend enough time in the saddle or condition well enough to be safe competing above BN or maybe N. That’s why there’s the sharp drop off in numbers at Training level - you need a more athletic horse, and the time it takes to school and do the conditioning is beyond the reach of most working adults. That’s what creates the large group of perennial BN riders.

It’s been said before that eventing has split into two distinct sports - Novice and below for 90% of the amateurs, and the levels above for the pros and the rare amateurs with the talent and discipline to do more. I don’t see that as a bad thing or something that needs or is likely to change. As long as enough riders climb out of the lower divisions, either as pros or amateurs, the rarified upper levels of the sport will survive.

So I don’t see the harm in letting the BN riders have a course that’s within their capabilities and inviting. Or to have the championship at that level be decided on the dressage score because most of the division got around the xc without penalty. The challenging courses and the big step up in difficulty for the championships can start at Novice or Training, where the competitors are better equipped to deal with it.

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By doing things like I posted above. Hosting shows like Short Courses, combined training, clinics and most of all…PONY CLUB!

I won’t feel bad for saying people who can’t canter a course confidently shouldn’t be eventing. They shouldn’t IMO. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t EVER. It means they should train more.

Eventing has a bit of a problem where people think “getting around” is good enough. It shouldn’t be good enough to just “get around”.

Also not sure if that was directed at me but I didn’t say the levels were dumbed down. I was saying NOT TO dumb down the levels. I would never ridicule anyone who was a perpetual BN or Intro rider. In fact, I encourage people to do this more than want to upgrade! I believe in upgrading when you are bored and also competitive.

I actually am more on board with the levels being a bit harder and more technical now. If you want to event, our sport is modelled off the Olympic sport, so the course design will trickle down.

If you don’t want that then go do a different discipline. Why should the levels change because people can’t ride a 2’6 course? I think intro might be even smaller?

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I agree that this is a problem for many people. However, I also see people who do have these opportunities, but would prefer to spend their time/money going to shows rather than spend it schooling. I think it is a bit of a change in the culture, that I personally am not a fan of. I admit to being taught the old-school way that you trained a level higher than you competed. These days it often seems the opposite.

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I feel like schooling does not have the same effect on horse (or rider) as performing in a show environment. Yes you should still school. But young horses and ammy riders still need low level opportunities to get used to the crowd, pressure, and schedule of an HT. As an ammy with a full time job and in graduate school I pick the schooling/showing opportunities that give me the best bang for my buck (&time!!). Sometimes going to a hunter show and doing a ground pole class is exactly what a young horse needs for very little $.

I really see no downside to offering a starter and intro level in recognized eventing. I much rather see a nicely trotted stadium and xc than an out of control canter round. I see a lot more of the later in all the lower levels.

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To understand level creep, you can’t just look at courses from that year in other areas. You have to look at courses at a specific venue over time – if that venue still even exists. The people that don’t see the level creep, or don’t think it’s a big deal, haven’t been paying attention to how their low level courses (BN, N, Training) have changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. Maybe they are not riding at a level where it matters, or maybe they’re not riding green horses who have never dipped their toes into Eventing.

Water is practically a prerequisite now at BN, where it used to be rare as hen’s teeth - and the avenues in which to school it are - or were - even rarer. Same with trakehners, ditches, and open airy oxers. Palisades, corners, tables, and hedge fences are now at BN where you used to not see them until Training. Even five years ago, if you wanted to take a horse to their successful first BN, you could pick a handful of events in Area 1 that were inviting and favorable. Now, you have to be practically schooling Training type fences before you take a green horse to their first BN because the variety of fences at BN is much larger than it used to be, and many of these fence-types well surpass what a horse green to eventing would be asked to jump.

So don’t tell me level creep doesn’t exist or it isn’t a problem. I’ve been bringing along green horses to their first events for over 20 years. It used to be I could school a horse XC a handful of times and then take it to a BN and have a successful romp - because the fences were not designed to frighten riders and horses.

Just to give you an idea of how my approach to training has changed, in early 2000 I sourced an OTTB and took him to his first BN event at Valinor within 6 months of his last (attempted) start. It was logs, coops, tires and an optional water crossing - so simple and straight forward we probably could have done it after his first XC school. We didn’t see a table or a corner until we started schooling Training level, because we didn’t need to. They weren’t ever on BN or Novice courses. We didn’t need to school water complexes and fences in water either, because they were unheard of until you went Prelim.

It’s not just that you need to school above the level you’re riding – I think that has always been the case if you want to be truly competitive – but now you are having to school elements well above your level, just to make sure the horse has been exposed to every frightener asked of him on course. That and, it is impossible to replicate the show environment at home. You have to go to a show to do it.

The horse I am taking to his first BN next week, has been schooling Training level XC all summer – because I can’t FIND a BN (or even Novice) height table or corner or mini-hedge to jump him over, yet these things are at the shows (which don’t always allow schooling). BN has become more about being cutting out competition than it has been about introducing a horse to the level, and it’s almost impossible to duplicate a BN course at home because most fences built to BN specifications are not mini-trakehners, mini-hedges, mini-tables or mini-corners. It might be different region to region, but in general here, if you want to school a table or a corner, you better be prepared to jump the one that is 3’9" or 3’11, because no one builds tiny tables or corners for BN. That right there is an issue, because there are BN riders who are perfectly competent at BN, that never want to jump a Training level fence (for many legitimate and perfectly valid reasons beyond not being competent) - so they miss that schooling opportunity and are SOL when they encounter it on course at a show.

Much like @subk, I don’t tend to take my greenies to recognized events for anything below Training now. They have to be well and going for me to consider it, and if I want to give a baby/green horse exposure (which is 90% of what I ride these days) I take it to one of the local schooling shows, where it’s $200 cheaper and the courses are actually inviting and not meant to rattle the confidence of my horse. The added bonus, like Subk said, is that I can school most of these elements and make sure that the outing is positive for the horse. I also take them hunter pacing, which is significantly cheaper and always well run. I still volunteer at my favorite recognized event in the summer, but the way the sport has changed and allowed level creep at the level where riders and horses are the most vulnerable just doesn’t do it for me. The only reason I am attending this event at BN is because the organizers put out an email blast about how few entries they’ve had, and I know better than anyone that is the death-knell of a venue and in Area 1, we can’t afford to lose much else.

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Are they trotting for a reason or trotting because they can’t canter a round? I think there is a difference.

I mean there is a place for trotting logs in the world, but at recognized events? Why? It is not eventing.

I’m the same. I would rather train and spend money on lessons and improving then just show every weekend and get around with mediocre phases just to be out showing.

I have been schooling my young green mare Training/modified all summer and I still don’t feel ready for her to head out Pre Training here (Novice in US) because the courses can be THAT hard for a first time event horse. I don’t want to do BN and spend $400 on a day eventing, I have been going to schooling combined tests and XC schooling and lessons instead.

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I think the change in technicality of BN courses is a reflection in the change of technicality of eventing as a whole. I personally don’t see it so much as scope creep, as a change in the focus of the cross country aspect of the sport. Instead of the focus being just on huge natural fences at the Advanced level, it’s much more about skinnies and combinations and much more technical jumps. Horses and riders have to have a different skill set to do well in eventing than they did in the 1990’s or even 2000’s. If the highest levels of the sport change, the lower levels are going to change as well.

I don’t necessarily like all of the changes, but a large part of it is the increased emphasis on safety, which is welcome. Looking at some of the old 4* cross country rounds that have been posted in these threads recently was pretty disturbing.

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Huh?

So a intro dressage test isn’t dressage?

And short stirrup isn’t hunters?

Everyone starts somewhere. The combination of dressage/stadium/xc is what makes eventing, eventing. Not the height.

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