Yeah I think sometimes you just have to accept that other people have different goals than you do. I personally wish the US Olympic teams the best, but if my competing in a horse trials at 18" or doing bad training level dressage or 2’6 jumper classes for 3 years straight (or running a 30 minute plus 5k or participating in the one triathlon where I practically drowned, because I’ve seen this argument on running message boards too)-- if my mediocrity is in some way preventing the US from medalling, I can probably live with that.
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@Ajierene I think I love you!
You are saying what I have been trying to say. Thank you!
And this line I want to bold, underline and add a whole bunch of other emphasis to.
Heck, look at it this way if you (not Ajierene, general others) want to hate beginners doing things in a safe and fun way so much - the beginners are funding the higher levels. With out more beginners we would lose even more events.
Not every part of the world has a whole bunch of schooling level events to choose from to do their trotting logs at.
I know lots and lots of people who are very thankful that our local rated events offer intro for them to trot around, learning the showing side of this fun sport and enjoying their pony/aged packer/green horse.
I am pretty sure if they did not offer intro level at the actual event then there would also be no intro level schooling option available either, since schooling happens on the same course after the event. I doubt they would go out and drop a bunch of small fences so people can ‘school more’ instead of showing.
I guess to some low level people should decide that they like this sport by building their own low level course at home to school on?
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Yeah, I think peewee soccer leagues are pointless, too. Luckily I don’t have kids so I don’t have to worry about that.
Regarding leadline classes in particular, I really feel like they are just a fashion/beauty show, and that is the opposite of what I want eventing to be. I want eventing to continue to be about the competency and effectiveness of the horse/rider. I don’t see how leadline classes for really young children promote that in any way. I’m not trying to bash the H/J world as I think there are many things that eventers can/should learn from watching the beautiful smooth jumping rounds that hunter riders put together. But I think that leadline at Devon exemplifies the emphasis on having the “right” clothes, hairstyle, horse, etc. that is the part of the H/J world that I’m not a fan of.
Regarding horse shows in general, I was brought up that a horse show was something you “earned” by working on your skills at home and that you didn’t go to a show until you were competent. Some of that was likely due to the fact that my family didn’t have a ton of money and so we couldn’t afford to go to horse shows every weekend. Another part was due to my trainer’s philosophy. Other people obviously have different opinions about the point/goal of competing at a show.
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I too was raised (and still live in) a situation where money was tight and horse shows were a huge privilege that happened very rarely.
(I think that is also part of the reason why when I do compete it is a huge stressful experience.)
But that is a hugely different reason for not showing than some upper level person saying you should not be able to show at all until you are fearless and able to do a certain level.
Again, I am not trying to dumb down anything here. I just think the scope creep is making things at lower levels harder, which then requires a new lower level to take up the space that used to be the current lower level.
Edit to add: It is not an uncommon thing to be said here that X level does not get you ready for Y level so they need to increase the difficulty of X level to better prepare riders for Y. That is the reason given for the need for scope creep.
If BN is no longer ‘welcome newbies, here is your place to start and learn and get confident’ because it has become ‘training grounds to move up to N’ then maybe there does need to be a level below it so places that do not have un-rated trials have some place for people to enter the sport.
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I grew up doing hunters/equitation. There were ground pole classes in the 1990’s, at least at schooling shows and locally rated shows. Young riders need to go to shows and do little jumps just as much as horses. They are in a strange environment and get nervous. It’s about more than just the size of the jumps.
I am an adult ammy that does BN/N level eventing. The horse I have now is older, has cushings, and trips. We do the Intro level at local shows, because we like going and having fun. Schooling we do BN/N jumps and questions, but I have no aspirations to move up, or go to rated shows, BECAUSE I DO THIS FOR FUN. I’m not sure what the obsession is in eventing in “moving up.” Most of the riders in BN/N levels are amateurs with full time jobs. Like me, they cannot get to the barn 6/7 days a week. I’m lucky if I get there 5 days a week, and there are definitely weeks that I only get on twice because well, LIFE. You can’t ride 3 days a week and go training. IMO, you can’t ride 3 days a week and go Novice unless you are with a trainer that is putting rides on your BTDT horse. Even to go BN there is a certain amount of fitness that is required to canter for 5 minutes. If you’re working your full time job 50-60 hours a week, you and/or your horse really might not have the time to be that fit.
There’s also an expense to moving up the levels. I can say very confidently that I will never own a horse that is a seasoned training level horse. I might lease one someday, but unless it ends up being a super talented horse that I get by accident, I won’t get there. Not everyone wants to invest in that, and some of us value the horses we have more than moving up.
Re: Level creep. In the late 1990’s I did BN and it was just fences. No water, no ditch. A variety of fences, not just logs. In 2005 I did a BN at Valinor and it also had no ditch and no water. I think it had a small bank. Now, you don’t see a BN course without a water crossing and a ditch. Even at Intro there is usually a mandatory water crossing and a swale. Personally, I like having those questions at a lower level and easier level, because it introduces horses to stuff like that and they don’t even notice when it starts to get bigger. Plus, on a personal side, my horse could give 2 shits about that stuff but other horses do so I end up placing well. What I don’t want to see/do is canter all over tarnation for 10 freaking minutes doing 18 fences.
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It seems pretty incongruous to deride people for staying at the lower levels, and then at the same time bemoan underprepared riders at higher levels who get themselves injured or killed. We should support people who know their limitations and continue to have fun participating with their horse in a safe manner.
Personally, I would be happy to camp out in Novice for the rest of my days. Every time you move up to the next level, the stakes get higher. And for a middle-aged AA like me with a family and an OTTB I adore, it may not be worth it.
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I haven’t seen anyone on the thread complain about people staying at the lower levels. I encourage it.
Posters were saying Intro and BN is too hard and they want easier versions, and versions with trotting over logs and W/T dressage tests at recognized events.
It has nothing to do with elitism but practicality of hosting these things and the SAFETY factor. Eventing requires skills, creating levels so people can participate without these key skills seems more elitism to me. Does every sport have to have an option for every single person of every skill level to be able to participate? That’s not realistic. Seems like some people want the sport changed to meet their level so they can be included, other than working to improve so you are at the level of your riding you should be to event.
The definition of XC is galloping over solid fences on varied terrain…not trotting over flat manicured grass.
You have to think about the cost of fences, cost of judges, cost of adding courses, the time it takes for this level to complete a dressage test and SJ and XC course (its a lot longer than the average BN/N course or test). How do you manage warm up areas with nervous riders who can’t even canter a course riding with upper level horses bounding around them.
There are plenty of schooling events that cater to this exact niche.
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No. People are saying the scope creep has to stop or we will need new divisions.
People are responding to complaints about people staying at lower levels.
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There’s a local schooling show that totally does this. Probably 2 minutes of cantering with no fences. It’s funny and aggravating at the same time.
Not everywhere.
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People can make them if they want them. Thats what I did.
Not if people do not have land and all that other fun stuff to do them on.
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I’m not going to argue about this, but there are ways;
Rent a facility to run one
Ask your trainer to get involved
Reach out to hosts of recognized events to see if you can help with a schooling option
List goes on and on.
Who’s to say this person didn’t earn the right to show? Maybe they started out in January scared to trot in the arena and the goal was to be able to canter alone in a field. September finally comes around and goal met and as a reward, you get to come to the show with Trainer because you have been in aww of the people riding at a higher level and you want to be part of it. So, you can canter across a field and you can go and jump the glorified cavalettis on your old campaigner and feel like a million bucks.
Everyone’s struggles are different, goals are different. and much like peewee leagues focuse on fundamentals rather than competition, these lower levels can also focus on fundamentals - like how to balance cantering across terrain while dealing with show nerves and obstacles. How you will get bounced out of the tack a bit if you are to forward to that downhill jump but at 2’, you will just get bounced a bit and not fall off and hurt yourself. How about learning how to walk a course, and remember a course.
I remember watching some kid go around cross country and come back to her coach/parent/whoever it was tell her she was eliminated because she missed a jump but that’s ok, she did well other than that - just need to work on remembering the course.
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I want to clarify, I don’t think Intro or BN are too hard as is. I do think that BN has been subject to significant level creep in the last 10 years, which is why Intro and Starter and Advanced Elementary and Elementary – and all these other divisions – have suddenly sprung into existence in the last couple of years.
I don’t have a lot of venues left in Area 1 that do schooling trials. The ones that do offer these sub-BN categories have way more class participation at BN and below, than they do if you combined N, T, and P together.
The show I’m attending on Monday has:
Training: 16 riders
Novice: 18 riders
Beginner Novice: 46
Advanced Elementary: 38
Pre-Elementary: 8 (note: this is a Juniors only class)
This is one of the most well-known and well-run horse shows in my area. They do not offer Intro/Starter, but I will get back to you when the show I volunteer for posts their times (they run in Oct). They offer Intro, Starter, Elementary and Advanced Elementary and they usually have ~100 entries that are these levels alone. They typically don’t get enough entries to run Training or higher.
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I do agree level creep is real, but I have grown to not be as bothered by it because of how the sport has changed. I guess I just gave in. The upper levels have changed so much and now the lower levels are just mini versions, but I actually enjoy that it is more challenging now and not just - kick be brave and get around.
First…what safety factor are you concerned about with such small jumps? As I stated already - part of learning fundamentals for some people is learning how to canter across terrain while dealing with show nerves. How to stay focused with another horse on course or stadium right next to cross country warm up or turning away from warm up to go over a jump without getting distracted and missing the jump.
As others have said, not everyone has ready access to schooling opportunities. Also, schooling is not the show environment so adding show nerves in for some is a big deal.
Edited to fix quoting error - below is in regards to last sentence of quoted post
Second…I would like to 1, know where this official definition is. 2 - would like to know where these events are that run every division over terrain except intro/elementary. Every Event I go to, while the lower level courses are shorter, they are over the same terrain and often you will see a line of varying heights (one of my favorite is the train at FairHill - which car am I going over? Or oohh…have I achieved the level of going over the engine!!!)
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There ARE people in USEA actively looking at this.
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This statement alone shows you don’t understand how events are run or the skills required to go eventing. A recognized event is not the place to learn these things. They should be solid before you go eventing. You can learn all those things at schooling shows. If you don’t have access to schooling and you can not prepare properly for eventing is that the best plan to go eventing?
Every time a rider falls a medic has to be used and the show has to stop until the rider is cleared, unless they have multiple medics. This, with the time it takes, the extra hands on deck to organize and help these riders get around is a huge use of resources for an event.
Again this is just my opinion. If you feel passionately about a level below Intro then reach out to some hosts and see their thoughts.
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Having lived in England for a long time, I think the biggest reason we in the US are not producing as many top riders who can make time starts at very basic grassroots accessibility that goes beyond what the USEA can be responsible for. As a kid in England, my very earliest introduction to “cross country” was through hacking. There were huge parks all across the southeast of England, and you maybe paid £60 for an entire year’s pass. The bridleways were wide and well maintained, there were hills, water crossings, acres upon acres of open grassland to canter on, park wardens who made sure no asshole dog was going to chase you … and I could ride on it every single day if I wanted to. At least where I live on the West Coast, there is nothing close to that. Add in that there were more shows, sponsored hunter paces etc. within 50 miles of my barn there than there are now in my entire US area that spans 4 states … well there’s the problem. However, I think the best thing the USEA could be doing given how much less accessibility there is in the US in general is widen participation, make grassroots riders feel included and welcomed, and if that involves a level of logs in the field, I’m for it?
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