NQR young horse - hypothetical

[paintedpennypony]

This is just a question I have and not something I’m dealing with in my horses.

Let’s say you have a young horse (less than 6yo) that’s only ever been in light work and they’re juuusst NQR enough to trip your sensors. Standard lameness exam and all the normal bases to cover don’t reveal anything to worry about but you can tell that somewhere isn’t moving correctly. Do you chalk it up to young horse weakness and keep going until something more concerning or obvious develops? Where is the line between young, unfit, and unbalanced vs. something is wrong and should be pursued diagnostically? Thank you!

[skydy]

@paintedpennypony

Where is the line between young, unfit, and unbalanced vs. something is wrong and should be pursued diagnostically? Thank you

Experience in young horse training is a help. The ability to see lameness from the ground and to feel it from riding vs knowing how the young horse wigglies feel, comes with practice.

Sorry, that is probably not the detailed answer you were wanting.

[Demerara_Stables]

I want them going in my program (not going somewhere else and having only been with me for a month or two) for at least 6 months of real work, minimum 4 days a week, so they can get pretty fit. Strength and lameness improvements can be non linear, too, so a set back of a week or two isn’t something to worry about. I usually have an idea before 6 months if things are going to get better or not, but I’ve chased a lot of rabbit holes with NQR horses and gotten nowhere so I’m pretty conservative with the vet bills unless something is screaming stifle/back/feet/etc.

IME a lot of things go away with consistent, fair work. You must be incredibly careful about a horse’s comfort (fatigue both during the ride and between rides, muscle soreness, and out right lameness), but a lot of times just working through whatever it is to get them strong is the best medicine. I do this by giving them the right amount of time off, varied work (dressage, pole work, jumping, trails, longeing/long lining), regular body work, laser, back on track products, and the occasional veterinary help like Adequan or shockwave. I’ve personally never had a horse that followed this program that didn’t either improve to the point that they were no longer NQR, or degrade to a point where I knew where the problem was.

[endlessclimb]

Wait it out.

I have spent a small fortune chasing ghosts. I refuse to do it anymore. If the issue doesn’t PRESENT itself, I just continue on.

Probably 0.5% of horses out there are truly sound.

[Simkie]

Totally agree on a wait and see approach for a nqr unfit horse, although pulling blood for EPM and Lyme is an easy box to check before going all out on an extensive workup, and a not unreasonable thing to explore pretty early on.

[TWH_Girl]

@endlessclimb

Probably 0.5% of horses out there are truly sound.

Truer words were never spoken.

I’ve had 3 young ones and agree with that wait approach, along with some good riding and strength training- meaning PT exercises like poles, ab tucks, tail pulls, balance pads.
Keep those feet properly trimmed and shod. Hind X-rays are fairly cheap and can provide good information to make sure the hind feet have appropriate angles and are not negatively impacting the hind and.
Chiro and bodywork are also good as they work through weakness issues and growing pains.

[Demerara_Stables]

@endlessclimb

Probably 0.5% of horses out there are truly sound.

Yup. And if you have ever been an athlete, you can attest to how sore you are after a good workout. We are asking these horses to be athletes every time we climb on their back and no athlete I know has had no injuries or sorenesses ever. If you’re not getting sore, you’re not building muscle.

If we apply that to horses then we can understand why they are off a lot. If they are working very hard and building a lot of muscle then we need to take that into consideration in their recovery routine, but not freak out every day they take an off step.

[CanteringCarrot]

Ah, but it’s so much fun to freak out and live in a state of nearly constant anxiety

Pulling bloods (Lyme, EPM, general) is a good shout. I wouldn’t go chasing things, but would do that.

If the horse seems happy in himself/herself and it’s nothing glaring, I’d just crack on and see what comes of it. It’ll go one way or the other.

[Demerara_Stables]

[ATXmom]

100% on living in a state of constant anxiety! The joy of horses!

@Demerara_Stables in your opinion, how long does it take for a young horse in training to build enough muscle that they are no longer sore? I ask as my daughter’s horse has been on rest and rehab/PT for most of the last year, came back at the beginning of July and is now back in full training (just started at the beginning of October with training rides and treadmill work) The trainers have been doing a lot of focused work on building his hind end. His massage therapist has commented on his hamstrings and glutes being tight during his last two sessions. He has been brought back very slowly, following the vet’s program and started light training in September. Obviously, we want him to be as comfortable as possible - TIA!

[Demerara_Stables]

@ATXmom

in your opinion, how long does it take for a young horse in training to build enough muscle that they are no longer sore? I ask as my daughter’s horse has been on rest and rehab/PT for most of the last year, came back at the beginning of July and is now back in full training (just started at the beginning of October with training rides and treadmill work) The trainers have been doing a lot of focused work on building his hind end. His massage therapist has commented on his hamstrings and glutes being tight during his last two sessions. He has been brought back very slowly, following the vet’s program and started light training in September. Obviously, we want him to be as comfortable as possible - TIA!

Honestly, I don’t expect a horse to ever reach a point to where they are never sore again. However, there will be a baseline level of fitness that your daughter’s horse achieves where you will see reduced frequency in soreness and less soreness that needs to be addressed by a body work (just rest will suffice). For a horse that has been completely off for a year, generally I would say 4 to 6 months of steady strength building work will get you to a good baseline. That of course depends on the program the horse is in, including their management. What I mean by that is having a trainer that knows when the horse needs time off, or a massage, or needs to reduce workload or increase workload for short periods of time, and also making sure that they have enough turnout to move on their own. It’s also important during the ride to feel when the horse is getting tired and give them a break. Lastly, it depends on the level you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to bring the horse back into work for second level dressage that is much different than trying to bring the horse back into jumping the 1.20m

What I’m looking for to know if a horse has achieved a good baseline is that they can do what I’m asking them to do for a few weeks without noticeable soreness or feeling like I need to call the body worker. Your body worker can also tell you if the horse has soreness in the same place over and over again, which means they aren’t quite there yet or if the soreness is moving around, which is a better sign to me because that means that they strengthening certain parts of their body and those are holding up under the increased workload instead of being sore every time they are worked.

Regarding long term soreness, if you think about how your daughter will likely want to move up in her discipline over time, that requires more fitness from the horse, so when you were working on more challenging exercises, you will notice soreness 24-48 hours after the fact. How much soreness depends on how difficult the exercise compared to what the horse was doing previously. Then you can decide how to help the horse through that recovery phase, whether it be body work, time off, long walks, etc.

Hope that helps!

[ATXmom]

Thanks! Very interesting, we will see how he progresses.

[paintedpennypony]

But it makes sense! When I first backed my young horse it felt like every step was lame in the beginning. Nope, just wiggly!

[paintedpennypony]

Thank you for the detailed answer do you think there is such a thing as bringing a horse along too slowly in terms of increasing the intensity of its work load when it’s young, or is it better to err on the conservative side of things?

[Demerara_Stables]

You’re welcome!

It depends on your goals with the horse. If your number one priority is long term soundness and you couldn’t give two flips about showing or training to a certain level, then no, I don’t think it is possible to go too slowly. If you do want to show or achieve a certain level in your chosen discipline, but don’t have a timeline, then I also don’t think it’s possible to go too slow. I do think that if you want to show, say, the 1.0m, you need to work backwards from when you want to do that and give yourself plenty of time to build fitness before your goal date of competing at that level. I also think diet and managing weight are incredibly important. They should never be overweight, and if they need to be worked to stay in an acceptable BCS, then you should do that, or feed them less.

As an example, mine is 21 this year, and while she probably would’ve topped out in scope at 1.0m (or less - she’s a QH ), she’s still jumping, doing 3rd-4th level movements, and sounder than she’s ever been because I took it incredibly slow and she barely jumped in her life until she was 17.

A lot of people like to quote the studies about horses “needing” to be worked as youngsters because it “hardens” (not literally, figuratively) their bodies, but no one actually reads the study. It compares racehorses that are galloped frequently to horses that are confined to small spaces like stalls. Certainly all horses need to get out and exercise and move on their own. But, until you want to ask your young horse for more athletic endeavors, there’s no reason for them to work hard X days per week, as long as they have ample turnout and have a good BCS (between 4-6).

[EventingMaff]

I’ll share my personal experience of my last two young mares that started in the ‘NQR’ bucket.

Both of my mares never actually presented with soundness or lameness issues - their challenges arose with contact, bend, and balance as my clues. I think it’s important, when dealing with these types of ‘NQR’ to calibrate against their typical personalities, work ethics, stoicism, etc within life. Both my mares were hard working, eager to please, people-oriented. Both mares were forward and fiesty “leader” personalities, so it was in their nature to escalate and / or revert to speed when faced with a challenge. Neither horse was spooky, but both became increasingly spooky as their performance worsened.

I waited until I saw enough of a pattern in their NQR “symptoms” to warrant minimal diagnostics. For those I do:

• Hoof rads
• Pull bloods for Lyme, EPM, Vit E
• Vet check flexions and neuro (I have a terrible eye, so need my vet to be my eyes)
• Chiro assessment of body tension / soreness
• Ulcer check / treatment
• Maintain for dental and check saddle fit

If those are all clear, then I progress with conditioning and strength training until things improve or deteriorate significantly enough to give me clues as to what I’m chasing.

ETA: For both mares things deteriorated significnatly. For one, it turned out to be kissing spine that even surgery couldn’t correct. She retired at 6 to live in a field. For the other, we we chased for 18 months, ultimately diagnosed through elimination & “treatment” on PSSM2. Have that mostly managed (flares occasionally) and she’s a wonderful low level dressage, eventing, trail horse

[BayBondGirl]

This is a really helpful thread for me, as I try to figure out my own 4 year old’s NotQuiteRightness.

[MorganMaresVT]

I have a 5 yr old who is making me read this thread with interest. I’m mostly chalking her “wiggles” up to saddle fit…I’ve had her for 5 months now and the saddle fitter has seen her three times and said it’s like she’s seen three different horses. Her body is just still changing so much that it’s hard to keep up. We’re currently in a butt high growth spurt, which is making everything extra interesting to figure out!

She has such a willing personality I have to remind myself she’s still so young and there’s no reason to push or sour her on work under saddle. Living in Vermont with no indoor, she’ll mostly get the winter off with some hacking around the fields until ice mixes in with the snow. I really can’t wait to see where things are when spring rolls around.