NSC and feeds - educate me

[endlessclimb]

I currently feed Tribute Kalm n EZ (Protein 14%, Fat 8%, Fiber 20%, NSC 13.5%) at 9 lbs/day split into 3 feedings. Additionally, I feed 1.5-2 lbs of beet pulp shreds soaked (full 3 qt scoop), and 3lbs (ish) of alfalfa cubes soaked, with about a cup of oil on top at the evening feed. Forage is 9 lbs of grass hay per day, which she really isn’t that good about eating - picks through, soils a lot. Just isn’t huge on eating her hay.

I’d like to switch to a grain with higher fat content/more calories available, but realized I don’t know much about NSCs. I hear about feeding low NSCs for the health benefits, but don’t know what “low” means or when it’s appropriate to go higher. She isn’t skinny, but she isn’t what I would call blooming, either.

I was looking at Tribute Kalm Ultra (Protein 12%, Fat 12%, Fiber 12%, NSC 23.5%) as a potential feed to change to.

So my questions are:

When is it appropriate to go to a higher NSC feed? Or is it never appropriate, when looking at gut health/risks?

What is considered “high” when discussing NSCs?

Any information would be appreciated. Thank you!

[carman_liz]

From what I understand, and I could be totally wrong… but nsc is more about sugar than calories, how old is your horse? Does she quid her hay? Have you had teeth checked and wormed lately? If her mouth is hurting grinding up hay would be hard and she is picking for the softer stuff. Or can you try a more complete feed like Nutrena Senior or Triple Crown Senior? Those have more fat and calories without the sugar and I know at least TCS is beet pulp based, so it helps pack on weight too.

[endlessclimb]

She’s 3, and just had her teeth looked at yesterday and will be dewormed according to the fecal I’m still waiting on. She doesn’t quid, and is a really good eater of her grain and beetpulp/cube soak.

The reason I was looking at the other feed is the higher fat content (directly related to higher calories), but I noticed the NSCs also went up quite a bit - but I don’t know what “high” and “low” are for NSCs as far as numbers.

TCS is 14/10/17/11.7, and it looks like the high end nutrena stuff is the same. She already gets beet pulp, would I just be better off feeding her more of it (or work up to more oil in the soaked meal) instead of switching concentrates?

[Dutchmare433]

Someone here had and maybe recently posted a spread sheet of all the common feeds and their values, including calories per pound. Maybe it was @JB ?

It I’m remembering correctly, Triple Crown Senior and Purina Ultium (plain, not the gastric care) are 2 of the higher calorie per pound grains, which might be more important than percentages of protein/fat at this point.

You could also try top dressing with something like rice bran or I’ve had good luck in the past with Omegatin.

It sounds like you’ve been looking into it, but I would try to rule out some more causes of general unthriftiness—it’s really a lot of calories you’re pouring in without seeing much benefit and not a lot of hay being eaten.

I came on here in search of feeding advice when my guy was 4 and lost weight/condition—turned out he had Lyme and once that was sorted he gained weight back and grew in a better coat that fall.

[endlessclimb]

@Dutchmare433

Someone here had and maybe recently posted a spread sheet of all the common feeds and their values, including calories per pound. Maybe it was @JB ?

It I’m remembering correctly, Triple Crown Senior and Purina Ultium (plain, not the gastric care) are 2 of the higher calorie per pound grains, which might be more important than percentages of protein/fat at this point.

You could also try top dressing with something like rice bran or I’ve had good luck in the past with Omegatin.

It sounds like you’ve been looking into it, but I would try to rule out some more causes of general unthriftiness—it’s really a lot of calories you’re pouring in without seeing much benefit and not a lot of hay being eaten.

I came on here in search of feeding advice when my guy was 4 and lost weight/condition—turned out he had Lyme and once that was sorted he gained weight back and grew in a better coat that fall.

I might be jumping the gun, honestly - she’s only been with me for just over a month. She’s clearly still growing, so I want to be sure her nutritional needs are met. Maybe I’ll just stick with what I’ve got for a little while while she settles into her new teeth (she popped a few caps off during the float yesterday). I’m out of the Tribute Calm n EZ and will have to pick up new feed today, so wanted to look into something with more oomph, but it can wait another month. I’m an “over react-er” when it comes to my critters though, bad habit.

She’s a solid 5 on the scoring system, you can’t see her ribs and she’s got good muscle. I’m just used to a little more bloom in the coat, but I’d guess I haven’t waited long enough to really see it yet.

I’m still curious as to what qualifies as “high” and “low” when it comes to NSCs though. I hear it all the time and want to learn more.

[fjordmom]

I have had very good sucess with Kalm n EZ when I was feeding it. I’m now using Essential K (their ration balancer) largely because horse and his needs have changed.

My 25 year old is now insulin resistant, so needs a low NSC diet. Anything below 12% is the goal. Less than 10% would be better, but is darn near impossible to find. When this horse was first diagnosed IR, vet told me I had actually probably held it at bay for quite some time due to the already low NSC diet I had always fed. You might want to consider that thought for the long term health of your horse. NSC is a combination of the soluble sugars and starches in a feed. IIRC Equianalytical has a good explanation on their website.

Yes, you are jumping the gun a bit to expect great improvement in just a month. (Ask me how I know. I do it too.) Good you have done teeth and will attend to deworming. Give your program at least a few months to do its work.

If you’d like to put a nice bloom on her coat, try some ground flax seed. Half a cup a day did amazing things for my guys. Not sure where you are or where she came from, but often this time of year they just look a little dull after the winter and before the summer coat has fully grown in. Lots of elbow grease helps too. One has sweet itch and had many skin issues when he came to me. This was one part of the puzzle. His coat is gorgeous now and he hardly ever itches/rubs anymore.

5 is a good body score. I’d aim to keep it right there.

[Simkie]

Looking at what you’re feeding, the most important thing, IMO, is getting her to eat more hay. Grain is supplemental, not the main event, and it’s not surprising that she’s not eating her hay with the amount of grain/other supplement stuff she’s getting–she’s not HUNGRY. I know it’s tough, and I’ve been in the same boat, but you really need to dial back the grain until she’s eating more hay.

For horses that are not sensitive to NSC, anything above 20% is considered high. For horses that are sensitive to NSC, the lower the better.

But focusing on NSC in this diet is missing the forest for the trees–she really needs to be eating more forage.

[theresak]

In my opinion, a BCS of 5 is too heavy, especially for a 3 year old. I think you want to be able to see the last 3 ribs as they move.

Bloom on the coat can take a full season to develop, especially if their nutrition may have been lacking previously. Flax is probably the easiest and cheapest.

[endlessclimb]

@theresak

In my opinion, a BCS of 5 is too heavy, especially for a 3 year old. I think you want to be able to see the last 3 ribs as they move.

Bloom on the coat can take a full season to develop, especially if their nutrition may have been lacking previously. Flax is probably the easiest and cheapest.

You can see her ribs as she moves. I don’t remember the Henneke scale saying anything about visual while moving, but my memory might be off. “Not seen but easily felt” is how I remember it, but no mention of movement.

[endlessclimb]

@Simkie

Looking at what you’re feeding, the most important thing, IMO, is getting her to eat more hay. Grain is supplemental, not the main event, and it’s not surprising that she’s not eating her hay with the amount of grain/other supplement stuff she’s getting–she’s not HUNGRY. I know it’s tough, and I’ve been in the same boat, but you really need to dial back the grain until she’s eating more hay.

For horses that are not sensitive to NSC, anything above 20% is considered high. For horses that are sensitive to NSC, the lower the better.

But focusing on NSC in this diet is missing the forest for the trees–she really needs to be eating more forage.

That’s a really good point, though it’s super hard for me to see them hungry sometimes its tough love that’s needed. Thanks for the wake up call.

In your opinion, should I just stay my current course, or reduce her grain/beetpulp/alfalfa cubes/all of the above feedings?

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

That’s a really good point, though it’s super hard for me to see them hungry sometimes its tough love that’s needed. Thanks for the wake up call.

In your opinion, should I just stay my current course, or reduce her grain/beetpulp/alfalfa cubes/all of the above feedings?

You’re feeding nearly 15 pounds of stuff in a bucket, and soaked beet pulp is A HUGE volume. Right there is close to her daily poundage requirement, before you even get to hay.

I’d dial way back on that. Frankly, I’d probably put her on a nice grass/alfalfa mix, and drop ALL the bucket feed until she was actually eating hay, then add in your grain of choice as needed, once you get to see how she really does on a lot of good hay.

I’ve never found beet pulp effective, especially for young ott horses who have a limited volume they’re willing to eat before they walk away.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[endlessclimb]

I figured the alfalfa cubes didn’t really count as concentrates, but I could be thinking about it wrong.

We feed grass hay, because we bale it all ourselves. If I want an alfalfa blend, I will have to supply it and I’m only there once a day - the vast majority of the poundage will still be a timothy/orchard blend.

She eats all the bucket things and totally cleans up, she just fusses through her hay and by the time she goes for round two of the buffet she’s created, half of it is soiled. That said, I agree with you.

Will dial back on the concentrates and just deal with her dropping a little until she’s a better hay eater. Hard to see, but I totally get what you’re saying. Thank you for your feedback.

[JB]

How much does she weigh? Any grass? I’m concerned about only 9lb of long-stem forage and why she won’t (can’t?) eat more.

There is no standard for low/med/high NSC.But in general, “they” use 20% as a mark to “low”. I don’t know what “they” consider to be the med/high line.

Beyond that, it’s ALL about context. 1lb or 20? IR or perfectly healthy? Pasture puff or **** Eventer? If IR, then you’re looking at keeping sugar + ESC 10% or preferably less.

For me, I would not have a 3yo on anything higher than 20%, and would even prefer to stay out of the high teens.

The KU has value with higher NSC for performance horses - REAL performance, not leisurely work for 45 minutes 4x a week.

Higher fat = higher calories (usually), but that doesn’t also equate to higher NSC. Fat doesn’t contain sugar or starch, but the source of the fat might. If a lot of rice bran is used to bring the fat up, that brings the NSC up. But if vegetable oil is, that doesn’t.

Triple Crown Senior Gold is something you might want to look into, if you can get it (ie you’re not going to get it from TSC, it’s only at independent retailers) at 12.5% fat and only 11.4% NSC. But even the regular TC Senior is still 10% fat, and only 11.7% NSC

[TMares]

Every horse I own prefers to eat hay out of some sort of bag or net- they will choose it over loose hay every time. Same hay, same stall- I’ve played with that many different ways with different horses- they want that ‘tug’ they get from biting grass off I suppose.

I agree she’s eating way to much out of a bucket that should be in a bale. Timothy orchard is perfectly fine.

[Calvincrowe]

How are you feeding hay? In a net, rack, bin, on the ground? I had a “hay waster” too, and went with a large corner feeder, set low, and it reduced the amount of wasted hay. I HATE wasting hay as it is so stupid expensive. My trainer’s barn uses Porta-grazer slow feeders. My mare would inhale her hay, then stand for hours with nothing. Not good! These feeders eliminate waste, don’t damage teeth like some do, slows down consumption but doesn’t frustrate. I really like them!

I think you should lower her amount of “grain” thus encouraging her forage consumption.

[JB]

Good point about nets - many people think they are only good for slowing consumption, but a lot of people use them - regular hole size - to keep waste down and actually increase consumption as a result.

Good point too about the grain. I’m curious which came first - did she eat too little hay and was getting too thin, so the grain kept increasing? Or was there “too much” grain to start, which then reduces her hay intake? But, if she’s really just trampling her hay, she won’t eat “that nasty stuff” :lol:

[endlessclimb]

@Calvincrowe currently she is fed from the ground.

@JB (it won’t tag you, I’m sorry!) The hay trampling started first, and within a week I started to see some muscle loss so I ramped up what she would eat - the grain - by adding an extra scoop at night. I almost always feed beet pulp as a late night extra, and at that point nearly all the hay at her evening meal is either eaten or soiled.

I can put a net up (I have one of those corner rings from hay chix so the hay can be pushed from the loft directly into it, no excuse from the barn workers about how annoying nets are), but I thought there was research on that potentially causing back/respiratory issues because eating from the ground is healthier? Gah, there’s too many conflicting ideas.

Edit: forgot to answer your other questions. No grass, that type of pasture isn’t available where I board, though I do hand graze her, I’m sure that’s not enough to be appreciable. I don’t know exactly how much she weighs, but she’s 16.2 behind and growing. She is doing a whole lotta nothing right now because of her age. I don’t think she has any health issues at the moment, other than being footsore from transitioning to barefoot.

@TMares I agree, and it would be cheaper for me for sure! I’m going to remove the evening scoop of grain entirely, but have a lot of beet pulp already in house to feed through so I’ll just reduce that and try and use it up.

Edit: JB, it tagged you after I posted, but wouldn’t give me the drop down. Weird!

[endlessclimb]

I can see it in her little diva eyes: “This is contaminated. Take it away, servant.”

[TMares]

@endlessclimb

@Calvincrowe currently she is fed from the ground.

@JB (it won’t tag you, I’m sorry!) The hay trampling started first, and within a week I started to see some muscle loss so I ramped up what she would eat - the grain - by adding an extra scoop at night. I almost always feed beet pulp as a late night extra, and at that point nearly all the hay at her evening meal is either eaten or soiled.

I can put a net up (I have one of those corner rings from hay chix so the hay can be pushed from the loft directly into it, no excuse from the barn workers about how annoying nets are), but I thought there was research on that potentially causing back/respiratory issues because eating from the ground is healthier? Gah, there’s too many conflicting ideas.

@TMares I agree, and it would be cheaper for me for sure! I’m going to remove the evening scoop of grain entirely, but have a lot of beet pulp already in house to feed through so I’ll just reduce that and try and use it up.

Edit: JB, it tagged you after I posted, but wouldn’t give me the drop down. Weird!

I’m able to hang mine so that my horse is eating about low chest height, like the bottom is lower than the point of his shoulder. He seems to eat from the bottom. it’s one of those flat nylon ‘webbing’ types, so it lays flat against the wall like a hay pillow. Like you, I don’t want them pulling ‘up’ or cranking their heads up high. none of mine paw at things, so that helps.

[Scribbler]

I have a very food focused mare. Nevertheless we have had a few batches of hay over the years that she has refused to eat. She will start out eating them and then stop after a couple of weeks.

In this case I have always sold the hay on to other barn friends and gotten a new kind of hay. There had been nothing wrong with the hay and other horses like it. I figure it must have made her feel ill in some way.

It’s always been “local” grass hay that this happened with, never Timothy or Orchard commercially grown.

If my horse was refusing hay my first move would be to source a better hay. Try for better, finer, and substantially different from current hay.

I agree a horse this age should be on a hay first diet with a small amount of ration balancer. Not buckets of feed and mash like a toothless senior.