Self explanatory.
Do people who compete at second level + and through FEI supplement with AAs or other “topline builders”? This whole genre of supplements is new to me, and I’ve discovered that some upper level dressage people I know use these “topline builders”.
I worry about kidney protein excretion over time.
Thoughts?
I used some when my horse hadn’t lost so much muscle and weight due to an illness. But discontinued once he began recovering and putting on weight.
I’m curious what others say about this.
No. No reason to. There is no quick way to ix or build anything. Unless a horse has some kind of issue, but it has nothing to do with dressage.
There is no lazy way out. It’s just correct work over a long period of time.
Nah, not unless there was some vet-confirmed reason too.
Yes, sometimes I do if I am feeding low sugar hay to performance ponies, who also are not getting any grain, and are not on pasture to speak of.
I don’t want to add carbs or sugar, or a lot of alfalfa… but want to provide all the aminos needed for building muscle.
Currently I have two ponies getting flax, a little bit of soaked alfalfa pellets, minerals, Vit E, and Tri-aminos.
My grand prix horse gets 1/3 of her hay ration as alfalfa, and I supplement L-glutamine (for muscle recovery), vitamin e and she gets BCAAs (branch chain amino acids) before and after training. She is on a soy free whole food diet, but doesn’t get much of it, however i do give a natural vitamin/mineral supplement that is high in omegas (Omega Grande) and is a base of flax and rice bran. She has a fantastic topline. I know some other FEI riders that like a supplement called “equinity”, but I dose more l-glutamine and bcaa’s than are in that supplement. Looks like a good supplement though, and economical. I buy my mains from Amazon in bulk. The dose I give on the l-glutamine is about 3-1/3 tables spoons a day; the dose on the BCAAs is similar, but is split before and after riding. If she has gotten her alfalfa before I ride, I only dose after the ride.
I worry about kidney protein excretion over time.
The AA supplements are typically formulated to provide higher amounts of the limiting essential AAs. Think of it like a bucket of letters and you are trying to write a sentence. Alfalfa is high in crude protein but can still be low in some “letters”, let’s say they are vowels. Without the vowels there is no way to write that sentence, which is metaphorical for building that muscle cell or repairing that injured tissue. So while alfalfa might give you a few vowels with a whole lot of extra consonants that need to be excreted, the supplement will provide primarily the vowels that are used most frequently so there is little wasted excess.
There was a blurb about this recently on Facebok by a vet - let me see if I can find it. Maybe in those short dressage hub videos about muscle mass?
Regarding the kidneys, it is IMPERATIVE that you test your horse’s kidney function with simple labs anyway. Horse could have kidney injury and you’d never know without labs until it was too late.
No. I’ve tried Tri-Amino and SmartMuscle something, and have not seen it make a difference.
Not sure there’s any definitive studies that suggest increased protein intake can harm the kidneys.
I use a protein supplement due to feeds generally being low in certain amino acids such as L-lysine.
Oh I am shocked now… I think I do feed them. Because they are an ingredient in my vitamin mineral supplement and I have two of them by the same company one with and one without them. It doubles the price and I do admit that the horses which get the one with it look stunning. In my horses there was a difference but if it harms them, I am not going to continue to feed it 
The other vitamin mineral supplement is just as good!!
3 horses get equitop myoplast, one is a 3rd level dressage horse, one is an eventer, and one is retired. Each horse has their own reason to be one it, and there has been a really positive change in all 3.
Gypsymare,
I have no idea what you’re saying! Can you explain it to me in sciencey-terms??
Manni01, I’m not talking about amino acids and proteins that come in vitamin/mineral supplements (such as Platinum Performance and various feeds). I’m talking about feeding supplements that are specifically “designed to build the topline”, such as TopLine Xtreme or SmartMuscle Mass, or other products specifically designed and marketed as “Muscle builders”. I know some people in the QH world who use these but I didn’t realize that dressage people used them, too (according to my local feed store).
Joidevie99, I always wondered if they “actually” worked. Cowgirl, that’s interesting. I can see how a GP-level horse doing GP-level work would benefit from aa supplements. Thanks for this information.
I wonder about chronic high protein in an herbivore’s diet. Or, at least, I think about it. I’m not planning to use these “muscle-building supplements”, but I was curious if anyone here used them and why.
North Dakota. That’s interesting, and that’s the first aa supplement I’ve (personally) seen marketed to the Sport Horse crowd. Looking forward to perusing the website. Would you mind explaining why you have your horses on it and what kind of changes you’ve noticed in your particular horses?
[QUOTE=J-Lu;9019775]
Gypsymare,
I have no idea what you’re saying! Can you explain it to me in sciencey-terms??
Manni01, I’m not talking about amino acids and proteins that come in vitamin/mineral supplements (such as Platinum Performance and various feeds). I’m talking about feeding supplements that are specifically “designed to build the topline”, such as TopLine Xtreme or SmartMuscle Mass, or other products specifically designed and marketed as “Muscle builders”. I know some people in the QH world who use these but I didn’t realize that dressage people used them, too (according to my local feed store).
Joidevie99, I always wondered if they “actually” worked. Cowgirl, that’s interesting. I can see how a GP-level horse doing GP-level work would benefit from aa supplements. Thanks for this information.
I wonder about chronic high protein in an herbivore’s diet. Or, at least, I think about it. I’m not planning to use these “muscle-building supplements”, but I was curious if anyone here used them and why.[/QUOTE]
ok I am relieved, Thank you!!
egood:
Treatment for chronic kidney disease IS restricting (excessive) dietary protein. Horses can go years without clinical signs of impairment. That’s why I worded my post the way I did - horses can have kidney injury and without routine labs one might not know.
Don’t ask me how I know.
http://www.equinews.com/article/nutritional-support-of-kidney-disease-in-horses
“Most horses with acute renal failure recover with appropriate treatment. For these horses, it is important to keep them eating and drinking normally; specific dietary management is less essential. Dietary management of chronic renal failure is aimed at reducing calcium intake and avoiding excessive dietary protein. Mature adult horses (1000 lb) in light work require approximately 700 g of protein per day. Assuming a total daily intake (for feed and forage combined) of 1.75% of the horse’s body weight, this can easily be achieved with a diet containing 8-9% protein. This amount of protein can easily be met with good-quality grass hay or pasture. The low blood protein in horses with chronic kidney disease is due to losses into the urine secondary to renal damage. Unfortunately, undue protein supplementation in these cases provides no real benefit to the horse. Excessive dietary protein will make the horse urinate more and may overwork already badly damaged kidneys. Legumes like alfalfa and clover are high in both protein and calcium. Therefore, legumes should be avoided in most cases.”
One thing I can say is that on this diet, with the L-glutamine and bcaa supplementation, my horse does not get muscle sore and comes out really forward and supple and ready to work. I also only work the GP movements 2x per week, but the other days we are working hard at transitions, strength building exercises and suppleness, so she is working hard. She gets a weekly massage too and her muscles always feel nice and soft. I do a stretch program for her too, before the ride and I firmly believe in a soy free diet (soy is an inflammatory).
Do you mean that soy is an ANTI-inflammatory?
I use HorseTech products - including Nutramino. Actually, I have a custom blend for my mare with the equivalent of Nutramino, Mag5-CR, and Vitamin E. There is a lot of research supporting amino acids for horses because we don’t have them on pasture. Good quality hay still loses a LOT of its nutrients in the drying process (actually, most of it is lost in the first 24 hours after cutting).
It can help with muscle soreness for a hardworking horse. I don’t think of it as a muscle BUILDING supplement, I think of it as a muscle SUPPORT supplement.
I give my horse 1-2 cups of the Omega Horseshine per day for the amino acids /protein and I also add 1 scoop of fat supplement. I found that as my horse progressed up the levels, he needed a bit more “fuel” for energy levels and muscle-building. This supplementation is in addition to his senior feed. He looks and feels great.
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