NYT article on PETA undercover in Asmussen's barn

[Lamb_Chop]

I have to say, the response I’m seeing to this from inside the industry is very disappointing. Circling the wagons, yes. More security to keep people off the backstretch, as if that will work. The attitude is of shutting the barn doors, “Nothing to see here, folks.” Instead of saying, “This won’t happen again because we’re stopping it”, it’s “this won’t happen again because we won’t let anyone see it.” Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I saw one post, I think on TB Champions, that the responsibility lies with the owners, who should all demand detailed info on everything a horse is given and every hair out of place. Not realistic. Even if the trainer complied, the info wouldn’t mean a thing to many owners. The “game” loves attracting big-money new owners, who are not horse people and probably have other businesses to run. Actually, horse people amazingly seldom have big money, since we spend so much caring for the animals.

[Laurierace]

So far all you guys have come up with is falsifying lasix slips. Assmussen obviously didn’t do that himself so he is off the hook there. So aside from the two things I mentioned in my original question, your problem is not with what Assmussen did but with the rules of racing themselves because everything he did was within the rules. Be angry if you like but direct it where it belongs.

[luvmytbs]

How do you figure he is off the hook?
Just like the GM’s CEO is not off the hook.

Asmussen is the one who trained his help, whether it’s Blasi or someone else in charge. Blasi then trains his helpers according to what he was taught by the master.

What happened to Nhero is inexcusable as just one example.

How many more horses are there (and not just in his barn) who are getting “fake feet” just to run?

[Acertainsmile]

Exactly! The owners are only going to know what the trainer tells them, unless of course there is an assistant saying they can do better by them. Same goes for exercise riders, grooms and hotwalkers. I’ve had people work for us for years and were never privy to our vet lists, and were often not around in the afternoon when our horses were treated. It’s not always a matter of hiding things because you are doing something wrong or abusive either, but you want your methods kept private and not shared with other trainers.

[Acertainsmile]

He’s far from off the hook Laurie, or are you just talking about abuse? Because reality is he’s in very serious trouble. Whether it’s the IRS, or the racing commission, doesn’t really make a difference. A Trainer is not supposed to falsify anything to the stewards, and he is 100% held responsible for what goes on in his barn.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=luvmytbs;7491863]
How do you figure he is off the hook?
Just like the GM’s CEO is not off the hook.

Asmussen is the one who trained his help, whether it’s Blasi or someone else in charge. Blasi then trains his helpers according to what he was taught by the master.

What happened to Nhero is inexcusable as just one example.

How many more horses are there (and not just in his barn) who are getting “fake feet” just to run?[/QUOTE]
Want to see my pictures I took of Big Brown getting his “fake” feet before the Preakness? Not illegal.
Look, I don’t disagree that things are messed up. Things are messed up all over racing. To kid yourself into thinking that there is something even a tiny bit different going on in his barn that isn’t going on all over is silly.

Things are so much “better” now that when I first started. It wasn’t that long ago that you could give banamine at lasix time in Kentucky. When I first started every horse got preraced 24 hours out with bute, banamine and dex unless you were in PA with night racing then they got the bute the morning of. I don’t believe there is a track in the country that you can do that today which is a good thing. You used to be able to shockwave whenever you wanted to which is why Gill’s horse’s legs were snapping off. You can’t do that now. I could go on but you get the idea.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;7491878]
He’s far from off the hook Laurie, or are you just talking about abuse? Because reality is he’s in very serious trouble. Whether it’s the IRS, or the racing commission, doesn’t really make a difference. A Trainer is not supposed to falsify anything to the stewards, and he is 100% held responsible for what goes on in his barn.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I said take out the social security stuff. Nothing else is going to stick.

[Acertainsmile]

I said very early in this thread that the IRS is going to be his biggest challenge. If he is guilty that’s a federal offense, and he will more than likely lose his license. If he is knowingly working horses with a machine he has another problem, doesn’t matter if he was in the state or not, he’s the trainer. I guess we will have to see when the investigations start, who will sing and who will keep their mouths shut.

[luvmytbs]

How quick the industry forgets.

Remember the ‘Hearing on Breeding, Drugs and Breakdowns’ in 2008?

Remember Jack van Berg:
“Abolish any and all medications – no Lasix, Bute, steroids or anything else,” said Van Berg, who trained 1987 Horse of the Year Alysheeba. “Use of drugs compromised racing and has been a major factor in attendance and interest falling.”

Arthur Hancock:
“The real problem with Thoroughbred racing is no one is in charge,” added Hancock, who bred 1989 Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Sunday Silence. “We are a rudderless ship. It is improbable for us to govern and regulate yourself. No one has the ability to bring uniformity and integrity to the sport. We need a (national) horse racing commissioner to save us from ourselves.”

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Breeding-Drugs-and-Breakdowns-64706

I remember listening to the hearing online and was excited to see industry leaders advocating for change.

But obviously not much has changed in the six years since then.

[Laurierace]

I have been in favor of a governing body, stricter penalties and uniform medication rules. I would even be in favor of racing completely drug free except for lasix but if they took lasix off the table that wouldn’t be the end of the world. My point all along has been we don’t have any of that now which means all those people are operating within the framework of the current rules.

If you read the complaints linked in the article I posted in one of them they were going nuts over horses being given sucralfate. Heck with all the other stuff they got it would have been inhumane not to give that if you ask me.

[Acertainsmile]

I’m wondering what else PITA has on those tapes…are we really that naïve to think that this is all she got in 7 hours of taping? I doubt it, and the one thing PETA is good at is getting peoples attention, so I’m thinking they may have a whole lot more to go on than just this one video.

[Laurierace]

Did you read the complaints? There is a lot more info there than on the tapes although much of it is stupid like the sucralfate.

[omare]

While indiscriminate use (or use to hide other drugs) is obviously very bad, I do not think it is humane to allow a horse to bleed. I cannot imagine what that must feel like to a horse and many times people do not even know it is happening. Maybe if we went back to 4 mile (i.e. long and slow) races from the colonial times it could be avoided but that is not likely to happen. I am also assuming, perhaps without a basis, that once a horse bleeds it will be more prone to do so in the future?

[luvmytbs]

[QUOTE=omare;7492116]
While indiscriminate use (or use to hide other drugs) is obviously very bad, I do not think it is humane to allow a horse to bleed. I cannot imagine what that must feel like to a horse and many times people do not even know it is happening. [/QUOTE]

Then don’t run bleeders. It’s simple.

Ever thought of what it feels like to a horse running on Lasix in 100+ degree temps - essentially completely dehydrated - and sometimes close to a heat stroke by time they cross the finish line?

[Laurierace]

Once again, you are talking about stuff that is currently legal. Which is why I say he is going to walk.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7491900]
Yes, I said take out the social security stuff. Nothing else is going to stick.[/QUOTE]

IMO all the talk of about the SS numbers was intentionally edited to give the desired effect.
The conversations I have had with my “legal” help have told me how easy it is to get a SS number. And just about everybody I know in the horse business track or show barns knows this. None of us would get involved in that sort of nonsense. No need. They know to show up with the necessary papers. Or told come back when they do.

Sadly I agree with what you are saying. There was nothing in the video that I could see that was “abusive” and or nefarious under the current rules of racing. Graphic and damning yes, especially to the laymen

Though the discussion about Nehro I found very disturbing. This was not a second string horse so Asmussen can and should be held directly responsible.

[Beaver_Breeze]

@gumtree;7492199

IMO all the talk of about the SS numbers was intentionally edited to give the desired effect.
The conversations I have had with my “legal” help have told me how easy it is to get a SS number. And just about everybody I know in the horse business track or show barns knows this. None of us would get involved in that sort of nonsense. No need. They know to show up with the necessary papers. Or told come back when they do.

Bingo.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7491848]
So far all you guys have come up with is falsifying lasix slips. Assmussen obviously didn’t do that himself so he is off the hook there. So aside from the two things I mentioned in my original question, your problem is not with what Assmussen did but with the rules of racing themselves because everything he did was within the rules. Be angry if you like but direct it where it belongs.[/QUOTE]

Please, we did not “come up with is falsifying Lasix slips” I just clarified how things are done in the racing jurisdictions I have had horses. Other then you taking exception, thankfully it didn’t side track the thread.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;7491742]
Well aware of how it works Gumtree, been around almost as long as you. Was a rider, galloped horses, trained, bred/owned and worked for trainers up and down the East Coast for many years. Just pointing out that there are rules for how it’s supposed to work when getting a horse on Lasix…my original point was Dr. Hunts statement on this particular tape. I also remember the syringes of blood, not much slipped by me, trainers wanted a level playing field period.

My original statement a page or two back.

“One of the problems (and is going to be a big problem for him) is that the vet admits that he is giving Lasix to horses that don’t need it. Although it’s done everyday, there still needs to be a bleeder slip turned in and signed by the vet. So he basically he’s admitted to falsifying those.”[/QUOTE]

My reply was not meant to be snarky hope it didn’t come off that way. I would like to believe there are some racing jurisdictions that hold vets to the letter of the rules and law.
I doubt it.

I found Dr. (thief) Hunt’s statement particularly interesting. The first Vet that I have heard say, and I doubt he would have said it “publicly” Lasix is a PED.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7491612]
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12529/eiph-exercise-induced-pulmonary-hemorrhage

Over 90% of them will.[/QUOTE]

I have one out of more then 15 in recent years that was a confirmed “bleeder” in my mind. And he won a lot of money.
I guess we are just lucky and beat the law of averages?

All of the articles and research that I have read have serious “holes” in them.
Including the South African so often quoted.