I would agree that my horse is super sensitive. He’s so kind that his sensitivity is easy to overlook.
I also agree that it’s a habit forming behavior. I personally believe that the number 1 thing I did that helped cure my wannabe cribber is that I was able to intervene before it actually became a habit.
I totally agree, and it really makes me think that it’s cribbing which results in low Se, not the other way around.
It makes me wonder if something about cribbing might increase free radicals which would result in more Se being used to fight that
It’s all very interesting to me. Certainly something to be aware of!
Yes, that is why we are incrementally dropping him to the minimum of the 2.5lbs of special care (previous post) and removing the Ultium. As you mentioned we have moved him from the Smart Omega to flax but adding E-SEL-Mag. We are dropping the amount of BOSS but not removing it because it is one his most liked foods.(he picks it out of his ration first thing)
I was strongly advised by the vet to not make major changes to his feed program such as going to a ration balancer as we are trying to avoid digestive turmoil for the near future. When the vet saw him last Saturday he was very pleased and made the comment " finally, you are looking like a stock horse". He came to me in October '20 and we experienced very slow weight gain until the last 30 days where he just started packing on the pounds. It is understandable as he was a very poor eater in the beginning but is finally eating well. Both the vet and I agree a healthy gut is worth a few extra pounds. So now we have to back him back down on calories, keep his belly healthy and introduce him back into work.
I agree on the correlation/causation thing, there are questions on that study .BUT, in my feeling making sure selenium supplementation is at the maximum daily level of 3ppm, in a selenium deficient area is worth attempting. If it helps the cribbing behaviour, that is just an added bonus. He was low on his PPE blood work and on recent blood work his levels are on the low side of the normal range. So if in some way the cribbing is lowering his SE levels, then we would be even more inclined to make sure he is getting the maximum allowable dosage.
The oats and cribbing discussion was started by KATHERINE HOUPT, VMD, PhD, DACVB in Practical Horseman in 2018 and several other sources.
@NancyM - Since I myself have the exact same personality, a bit of a workaholic with anxiety, I can relate. I agree with all that you have posted, this is horse who goes through life trying very hard “not to be in trouble”. The slightest sign of our displeasure makes him worried. This is a wonderful attribute but I know has made him anxious and cribbing has become his only outlet. So although it bothers me, it’s my problem. I am coming to terms with his need to do it for comfort. All I can do is give him other activities that are more preferable. We have made strides in other areas. He has been respectful about being caught from day one. He never volunteered to be around us unless we had a halter or he was required. Over the past week, he is more and more interested in what we are doing, coming up more and more to investigate or simply interact. Last night he came to gate to simply be petted. This is a big step (at least to us) in his path to feeling comfortable and safe in his new world. We are going to take @lenapesadie 's advice and maybe do some of Schiller’s anxiety exercises to see if he can learn that making his own decisions is okay. I feel like if he understands that he is allowed to have an opinion and that doing something wrong does not end in a harsh punishment, he can relax and enjoy his new life of relative ease and comfort.
@Incantation - The outlast is in the Ultium so I will look into it as we go forward since we are dropping the ultium. Thanks!
Excellent! I missed that. 
I am also finding that formal clicker training can change a horse’s attitude to people and work. I don’t think you can use clicker training for everything, or that it really works for riding. But it gives the horse a new paradigm for having a conversation with a human. When it works, the horse learns that he needs to think and offer a response, and that he will be rewarded for try. He learns that the interaction can be entirely reward based and proceed at his own pace. Once he learns some behaviors he can also use them as greetings or a way to say “interact with me!”
You need to have really good timing and proceed in a logical way, there are training resources online that outline how to “load the clicker” and what behavior to teach first, and how to build manners in from the start.
A lot of competition and lesson horses are taught to just be very quiet on the ground (until they explode at something) and have not developed much complex dialogue with humans. They are like old fashioned children brought up to say yes, ma’am yes, sir to adults, keep their eyes on the ground, not speak at the dinner table, and who have no idea how to have a conversation with adults.
I have used it for riding, with a gelding I used to have. I was able to phase out stopping immediately for a payoff, and just stop a few times per ride. It really helped him with his attitude towards work. I swear he could count though, he knew how many treats were owed!
If you can find that online, I’d love to read it. I found a few of her articles in PH, one from 2017 updated in 2020 with no mention of oats, and can’t find any other reference to her + oats. Regardless, I suspect it may have been some information based on incomplete or retracted/outdated info, UNLESS the reference was really to the beta glucan found in oat bran
EXACTLY, this is him! He is exceptionally polite, and had no emotion on the ground. He does what he is told whether he likes it or not. When under saddle anytime you make a quick move he drops his nose to the ground and sucks his belly up waiting for the rein jerk or the spur. His feelings never mattered and if he showed them they were either ignored or punished. I knew many horses like him back in the day, drones that did as they were told and had the ability to adapt and carry on until they either found a caring owner or went into a lesson program. Then there were the others that basically became to sour or stubborn to ride.
I know many people who think this attitude in a horse is ideal, they could care less as long as he performed as needed. I like my horses with a little panache, that look like they are enjoying their job. In order for a horse to do this, he must be healthy, happy, he must have an opinion, he must make his own decisions and be able to control his anxiety. I will say that under saddle he is happy and very genuine about wanting to please, hence why I bought him. He tried very hard to find out what I wanted from the start.
From the beginning, I have allowed him to make choices. He does not like to be brushed for instance, at first he would just lean away, now we get actual ears back. He has come along enough to know that if he shows me he does not like something, I will stop, slow down, lighten up or try to do it in a more pleasant way. Like brushing, he likes SOFT brushes and towels, but not currying. He does not like the stall fork (wonder why), so picking his stall when he is in it makes him anxious. I can do it, he will let me do anything, but he does not like it. We do not force our company on him, if he wants to interact we make it rewarding, if not he is allowed to be by himself.
My husband remarks how different he is from my other three geldings who are are individual, gregarious, interested, involved and come to greet us at first sight. Can they be bratty? Yep, if they don’t want a blanket on, they let me know. I raised two of them and the the warm blood has had positive feed back from humans his whole life. The also understand the gist of “sorry buddy it’s happening” and will submit.
Clicker training would be beneficial! I have done it with other horses so I know where to start. Maybe another tool to reroute the anxiety. Thanks!
@JB Here a couple articles- after rereading I am thinking that “concentrate feeds” is really meaning sweet feeds and oats are just the go to. I would be much more interesting if the studies were done on low sugar diets vs standard diets. There are several more articles but here are a few:
I own a cribber. I’ve contacted his breeder and found out he wasn’t a cribber until he was 5-6 years old at a show barn. He wasn’t turned out, had an insane workload, and had stomach issues. Between stomach pain and stress he began cribbing. The people I got him from tried EVERYTHING under the sun (short of surgery and cribbing rings) for a couple years. They decided, and I continued to just let him crib. I manage his environment by allowing him 24/7 access to large turnouts, always has at least one pasture mate, lower NSC diet, free choice hay, and making crib spots inconvenient. He becomes very stressed when not allowed to crib. Our vets agree with this choice. Higher NSC feeds and treats like oats, make his cribbing significantly worse. The daily gold also made a huge difference. We’ve gotten him to where he only cribs 3/4 times a day, it used to so bad he would get thin. In the summer when he’s out on 15 acres it’s probably less. However, when we change his routine, he reverts back to his old ways.
So this is along the lines of what I was thinking. Of cereal grains, and certainly an entire COB/sweet feed mix, oats are the grain least likely to cause (worse) problems. It’s like colic - information is out there showing how much safely digested oats are, vs corn/barley, and therefore not as likely to cause colic issues, but way too many people read that as “feed oats to prevent colic” 
I suspect this is similar - oats are less likely than many other things to contribute to issues resulting in cribbing, not that they are “good for cribbers”
From the 2nd article:
"Horses fed oats exhibited a cribbing rate of 15.5% of the day while horses fed sweetened grain exhibited a cribbing rate of 27% of the day. "
From the first article, in line with the above:
""Plain oats have a far lower sugar content and, as a result, are the grain least likely to stimulate cribbing, especially when given with plenty of hay. "
But wow, I cannot agree with this, from the first article:
“Plain oats and hay are a healthy diet for a horse who is not exercising routinely.”
No, that’s not a healthy diet, as you’re adding a high phosphorous feedstuff on top of a forage that is likely either already high in phos, or too low in calcium. Of course if there’s enough alfalfa in the diet that’s better, but most people don’t feed (enough) alf, and will also read “hay” as grass hay.
The 3rd article references the same study as in the 2nd
In the end, oats don’t inherently CAUSE cribbing, any more than they prevent it or are “good for cribbers”. There are way, way too many non-cribbers eating oats, sometimes a lot.
But like anything higher in starch, they can bring up or exacerbate underlying issues that could lead to cribbing.
Your observations are similar to my mine, which is why I posed the question. What I took from the various articles was that sugar was the precursor to cribbing. So in essence, the sugary taste for example molasses in sweet feeds, seems to exacerbate the problem, but not the carbohydrate or blood sugar levels.
It did read to me as:
Questionable information and easily misunderstood in my opinion. I posed this question as food for thought as I would not have changed away from a high fat, IR regime.
Again, if there is correlation between sugar and cribbing, then why have more studies not been done on the regulation of blood sugar levels, insulin response and starch levels in the predisposed horse?
One thing we do know is that high starch meals produce volatile fatty acids which directly and negatively impact the lining of the stomach, literally eating away at it. Do that in large enough amounts, over long enough time, and you’re causing ulcers which can trigger cribbing.
Once the habit is established, the feed doesnt matter that much.
I knew a nice big OTTB mare that was living year round at the time on letdown pasture. She was impossible to catch at the time. When my horse was out with the herd I’d feed them all windfall apples and try to get my hands on the mare. Anyhow, I remember one day I was saying goodbye to the horses over the board fence and that mare came up for an apple, stopped, and had a good crib on the fence rail before she accepted the apple.
She had been off track for several years, in a compatible herd, in gorgeous condition on a late summer excellent pasture, and there she was just automatically grabbing rail and sucking.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
