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Oats for Cribbers?

Horse Care
#1

First of all I must have really liked this horse to buy him and I do. He checks the boxes of what I wanted for my returning re-rider status. He is uber well trained, handsome, a good mover, sound, sane, an easy keeper, goes bare foot and basically is 16.1 hands of Mr Ideal. Except the !@#$%^& thing CRIBS. Okay, so it makes me nuts. Like NUTS, because he does it the gate outside my bedroom window at 4 am and I wake up to ERRRRP.

So here is our journey so far, tried a french collar, a nut cracker collar, a plain band collar, a Miracle collar, and the Dare collar. He cribs with them all. He will wear a muzzle and also wear holes in his face trying to get it off. I refuse to go to the electronic collar or the spike collar, so please let’s not discuss those. He likes to crib on gates so I have sprayed Cayenne spray that gets all over my gloves and hands, makes my eyes water and makes me miserable. He will leave it alone for a couple days and then after the next rain, back to cribbing. I have tried soap, he actually likes the Irish Spring, he licks it off then cribs on the clean spot.

Diet- Free Choice grass hay, all he can eat, all the time.
Divided into am/pm - 4lbs beet pulp,4lbs Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care, 1/2 cup BOSS, Smart stride Ultra, Smart Omega &E , 2 oz Redmond Daily Gold, 1oz Vitamin Gold mixed with about 1lb of long straw alfalfa to make him slow down to match eating times with the warm blood. He also gets 1lb of Ultium Competition for lunch.

He lives in a private turnout with a gated, bedded run in shed. He is allowed to go out to pasture with another horse on nice days. He has hay inside and outside.

He came to me in fairly rough shape, he did have ulcers which I blamed for the cribbing. He did 45 days of Nexium and last vet visit showed ulcers to be healed. He is cribbing more now than he did with the ulcers. He was not a good eater when he came, but is now eating like, well, a horse. Condition is what would be described as very good for winter on the vet report. Heineke score going from 6 to 7, hair coat blooming, fine, shiny. Top line strong and muscle structure defined. When turned into the grass lot he is full of play. He is not unreasonable or difficult to handle but his recreational spookiness has increased. He feels good and is showing it. He actually vibrates with energy. I will also add he is a 11 year old appendix paint. in rehab mode due to mud and poor hock flexion on purchase ( last flexion test markedly improved), teeth floated in Nov 2020, recent fecal count shows very low egg count.

Now that I have given all the COTHers the info they require. I have been doing some reading on Cribbing and it seems that sugar seems to encourage the cribbing. They recommend feeding oats. I am trying to wrap my head around this nothing in his current diet is really high in sugar. The warmblood is EPSM so I know the sugar levels of the Competition (which we are dropping as his waistline expands) The Special Care is low in sugar and starch, beet pulp (no molasses added) is also low. So what would be the benefit of the oats as to cribbing? The increased starch content?

To change him over to oats would increase his starch loads and possibly be inflammatory. I would also have to put him a ration balancer to make sure we were getting the balances correct. Sugar contents in ration balancers are similar to the beet pulp/special care combo. We could then drop the multivite ( temporary to make sure sure we were filling in the gaps like the Ultium) but we would still have to keep the joint supplement, daily gold, Omega and BOSS.

Thoughts?

#2

I own a cribber. I’ve owned him since he was a yearling. I suspect that he was predisposed to crib, no matter what I did at some point in his life he would have had a stressful enough trigger to make him start.
He has spent most of his life living out 24/7 with free choice hay. He has always been that horse that appeared calm, but if you look closely he’s actually very anxious. As a young horse that looked like mouthy behaviour and pawing when he was stressed, now that he’s older we can add cribbing to the mix.

Anyway, for him the trigger was being left in during an ice storm for almost a week when he was five. I was away and the barn didn’t let me know, otherwise I would have had some friends ride and hand walk him. It started as just a crib here, a crib there, usually when he wanted something. “I want more treats!” = crib. “I want to go outside now!” = crib
For years he didn’t crib outside at all, and only occasionally inside. I made the mistake of moving him to a barn that didn’t offer 24/7 turnout. He was fine for about six months, then they switched his turnout buddies and that was stressful enough that he started cribbing more. I tried a few things, but ended up moving him to where he can be out 24/7.
He’s been treated for ulcers, has hay 24/7, out with friends that he gets along with (he’s the boss). Doesn’t show very often (4-5 shows per year), and he’s treated for ulcers and stress proactively. At this point it’s a both a habit and a coping mechanism. His diet has never appeared to have an effect on the frequency of the cribbing.
I don’t see the point in making him stop. He cribs on wood and is almost 11, none of the vets that I have used have commented on it from a dentistry perspective. No history of colic. It seems to me that it would be more stressful to take away that coping mechanism. He would likely just lose weight from fretting, or develop some other stereotypy. I just do my best to keep his life as stress free as possible.

#3

All carbs digest down to simple sugars. Feeding oats does not mean feeding less sugar.

Some points. I think you can simplify the feeding routine. Get a good ration bancer, or beet pulp with a good vitamin mineral supplement and a cup of flax. Black oil sunflower seeds are high in Omega 6. You want flax which is high in Omega 3.

If your horse is getting too much sugar, the likely source is the hay. Have you had it tested?

I would also say that Heineke 6 to 7 is overweight verging on obese, and that’s the point metabolic disorders start to show up in both people and animals, especially in middle age. Easy keeping stock horses are prone to metabolic disorder and laminitis/founder if they get too fat.

Unfortunately in my experience cribbing is a bad habit like a person compulsively biting their nails. Cribbing seems to make them feel better. There seems to be no way to make it go away.

#4

Every horse I’ve fed oats to ended up displaying symptoms of gastric ulcers (or were actually dxed with gr 3-4). For a cribber, oats would be the last thing I would feed. I could look at a good quality beet pulp, with aloe powder / juice and a prebiotic. Worked a treat for my TB.

That and stall toys like a Likit, and nibble nets for hay.

#5

@Scribbler - He is getting Flax as well as BOSS in the Smart Omega 3 plus E. We have had our hay tested and it came back in @12.3, so safe for sugar sensitive horses.

I agree he is currently at the the top of the weight I want him at. We are backing up the feed finally as he has been eating well. He came to me as Heineke 3.5 with little muscle definition and a very poor coat. So right now I am trying to balance getting good nutrition with little to no work for another 30 days. That is my point about the oats, why would horses fed oats in studies crib less than a horse fed IR diet?

@Old_Mac_Donald - Yep, oats are famous for creating all sorts of GI side effects, that’s why I was gobsmacked to learn that this was the prescribed food for cribbers. Generally horses crib due to ulcers, oats can cause ulcers, horses crib because they have ulcers… The idea of giving up beet pulp in favor of oats seemed highly questionable.

He does have nibble nets, maybe a lik-it might tempt him. He will not play with toys. I did try him on aloe juice and he was not a fan, at all. We are of course doing beet pulp, probiotic and the Redmonds.

@GoodTimes - I think that anxiety is the root cause of the cribbing. This fellow has lived the " breed show life". He been to numerous trainers, had several owners who kept him at trainers, been hauled extensively. He is afraid to show any emotion or even let you know what he likes and dislikes. He has been disciplined harshly for “infractions”.

It was a couple of months before he felt comfortable enough with me to make it clear that he did not want his blanket put on while he is eating, he will allow it, he just snaps his tail now if I insist. He is a horse waiting for the next thing to change or the next regime to begin, That has always been his life and it makes me sad. I wish I could tell him that this is it, there are no more changes, we will trailer out the next lesson, trail ride or show and you will come home to the same place, the same people, the same food, the same friends, for the rest of your life. There is no more corporal punishment, not required for this guy, raise your tone and he turns into a quivering bowl of jelly.

I guess, I am the one with a problem, maybe I should just care that he is healthy and let him indulge in his bad habit. He has not done any damage to his teeth as of yet and the cribbing does seem to make him more relaxed. I just worry about colic, but don’t we all just worry about colic?

#6

:question::question::confused:
Beg to differ.
Every horse I’ve fed oats has been free of any ulcer symptom.
I started feeding a 50/50 mix of cracked & rolled, then switched to Triple Cleaned (aka Racetrack) whole.
This over nearly 20yrs, various breeds & ages:
TB - aged 20-27
TWH -10-15
Both horses in excellent health when lost to a trailer accident.
WB - 14-19 - lost to anaerobic infection
Hackney Pony - now 20yo, been on oats since I got him as a 10yo
Alleged TWH (no papers) - got him as a 12yo almost 6 yrs ago
Miniature - fed oats from 2yo-6yo switched from oats to TC Sr when he threatened founder last May.
Vet advised carbs in oats were not in his best interest.
But she complimented me on the others’ condition.
As did her predecessor - my vet of 20yrs who retired his equine practice.

1 Like
#7

There are many that have had your same experience. Growing up oats were the basis of most feeding programs. I just found that QH’s and Draft cross breeds seemed to develop GI issues when oats made up a high percentage of the ration. Then also for these breeds Insulin resistance made oats a a no no for those horses who were prone to founder.

There are horses out there that thrive on an oat based diet. However to take a horse of a breed that can have GI issues on oats and feed them oats for a habit that usually goes hand in hand with GI issues? I am trying to find why studies suggests that oats would make a horse less anxious and therefore less likely to crib?

#8

How many pounds of hay is he eating? Could you reduce the number of pounds of the Special Care (15% NSC) and add more hay, especially since he is a 5-7 body score? How many pounds is he getting of the Ultium Competition? The Ultium Competition states that it has 10% starch and 7% sugars, but I can’t find a NSC %. You might be able to drop that as well.You could add a vitamin/mineral balancer to the beet pulp to ensure he is getting everything he needs. Several brands have added amino acids so that the protein side is covered as well. dropping the 2 “hard feeds” and replacing them more hay may work for him.

I read an article reviewing a study that thought cribbing could be caused by a lack of selenium. That could be something to investigate. https://thehorse.com/136946/selenium-and-cribbing-is-there-a-relationship/

Does he run out of hay before you are able to feed again in the morning? Maybe that would explain the 4 am cribbing.

On the emotional front, maybe he doesn’t like be alone in turnout? Can he touch other horses when he’s in his paddock? Does he have a regular turnout schedule? Or does the “when the weather is nice” make it so that his turnout is more often a no go than a go?

I boarded at a co-op facility for many years. We had one older QH that was in a herd situation on 24/7 turn out. They were brought in to be fed breakfast and dinner only. Plenty of grass in the pastures and unlimited access to a round bale. When the horses would come in to be fed, he would stop by a cross fence and crib. He just seemed to need to have a “cigarette” before every meal. So yes, for some horses it just seems to become a habit that is VERY hard to break.

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#9

As long as he is not too easy a keeper, alfalfa is your friend.

My 24 year old stallion, who I have owned since he was 3, came to me as a dyed in the wool cribber. I kept a collar on him, because it made me think I was trying to deal wit the issue. He stopped cribbing years ago, after I dealt with his various neuroses, and also fed him what he likes, and alfalfa.

I also like to use beet pulp on my guys, because there just isn’t anything about it that isn’t good for the inside of a horse, as long as it is soaked properly. It is great for hind gut motility, and a super way to get more fluids into horses during the winter.

I think that the rest of your program sounds great. I would just tweak it.

#10

My horse was a cribber as well. I bought him as a weanling and he started as a yearling despite having a buddy and out 24/7 with a shelter. I just believe that some are predisposed to cribbing. I tried collars and finally I just crib proofed his living space except for 1 place and let him crib as he wished.

He never suffered a day from his cribbing. He was an easy keeper and had zero vices, no grumpiness or touchiness ever and the cribbing was the same no matter what he ate ( hay wise or feed wise).

Sounds easier to just run a strand of electric so he can’t get to the gate and let him crib elsewhere that doesn’t wake you up.

2 Likes
#11

I tell people that when my horse cribs it’s like his “smoke break”. He likes to crib after having any treats or his RB. Usually only once or twice, then he goes to get a drink, and meanders on his way.

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#12

@jawa - He is probably eating 20-25 lbs of hay per day, when he first arrived he was reluctant to eat a flake per day. He has a slow feed hay bag with about 15 lbs for am and pm feeds. He also can filch as much hay off the round bales that are stored in the barn next to his run in. We tarp those off to keep pilfering at bay by the other three, but he seemed to get a kick out of stealing it so we just let him. He never finishes the hay bags between feedings.

He is only enclosed in his stall for 30 minutes during am/pm meals. He has free range otherwise and does spend quite a bit of time playing over the gate with the other horses. His paddock has no grass as we try to use the grass pasture only during dry times. When turned out with another horse (he is bottom of the pecking order) he cribs more if they try to boss him around. I have tried all of the other three geldings and he seems most relaxed with the warm blood.

We are slowly phasing out lunch and the Ultium as he no longer needs it. Then we will drop the Special Care to the 2.5lb minimum until he is back in work.

I will spend some time looking into the Selenium issue. Thanks!

@ASB_Stars - Alfalfa is one his faves. I just wish I could give him more, but he is indeed turning into an easy keeper. I am indeed hoping that time and an low key life will let him be less anxious and therefore crib less

@candyappy - I have owned enough horses to know they all have an issue. This just happens to be his. Here is hoping he is like yours, stays healthy and happy despite the habit. As for the cribbing on the walk gate below my window, the electric wire might have to be the cure, lol Thanks!

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#13

My horse started experimenting with cribbing at age 7. I was fortunate to notice it right away and basically threw the kitchen sink at him trying to fix it. The good news is that he doesn’t crib now even withOUT a collar. Not in his stall, not under stress, he doesn’t crib at all. The bad news is that I don’t know what actually worked since I did everything at once.

I’m going to list the things I did. Some items on my list you’ve already got covered or tried already.

  1. Cribbing collar. The Miracle collar worked when tightened appropriately aka tighter than you will be be happy about it. I hated it. But it worked to prevent him from practicing cribbing. I don’t think I used it for more than a week.

  2. Hay all the time. No exceptions.Not mediocre hay either. His favorites only. I still do hay all the time but it can be regular hay as opposed to special hay.

  3. Alfalfa hay. @15 lbs daily; a mix of soaked cubes and regular bales of hay. For my horse all this extra yummy hay meant we cut his grain back pretty hard. He gets about half that much currently. Tried to cut it completely once and even though he didn’t start cribbing he had some other things going on that led me to put him back on it.

  4. Selenium supplement. There was a article on this. Will try to find link and post that if I find it.

  5. GastroElm Plus. While I have no idea if this supplement made diddly squat difference since I made all these changes at once, I did use it. I think I did it for 3 months. It was relatively affordable if I recall.

  6. Warwick Schiller’s Relationship Path; an online video subscription / training program thing. It really has upped my ability to recognize and respond to my horse’s anxiety in a productive and kind manner.

  7. Reduced training expectations. This is related to #6. Pushing my horse to the limits wasn’t helping anything. Looking back I was way over threshold far too often in the time leading up to his experiment with cribbing.

  8. Some sugar reduction in diet. Cut grain hard like I said previously and then switched to a lower NSC grain. He eats Triple Crown Senior currently. Considering switching to the Gold formula of this in future. No other attempts to reduce sugars.

  9. 1-2 lbs carrots daily. Some in toys. Rest just tossed into his feeder.

  10. Toys. I tried several. He only liked the ones that have snacks involved.

I think that’s everything. I hope some part of that will be helpful to you in some way

1 Like
#14

Article link re selenium in cribbing horses. I believe there is also a rebuttal to this study pointing out that the control group also was low in Se. The study notes the lowest levels found in cribbers.

3 Likes
#15

@lenapesadie - Interesting article! Thanks for posting it!

I went through his supplements, he was getting some selenium but I switched him to a higher dose of Selenium, E and Magnesium. I dropped the Omega 3 plus E as both would have gotten his vitamin E level out of whack. I just replaced it with Flax to keep the Omega 3.

I also ordered him a lik-it and a treat dispensing ball. He did not show much interest in the other one but neither did the other horses, maybe the design.

I took his Dare collar off. It seems like it works better the first day or so he has it on. So I will just save it for when he does have to be inside for a longer period. I also went ahead and wrapped the top of the gate under my bedroom window in aluminum foil ( suggestion in an old horse book) He went over his favorite spot for a relaxing crib. He placed his teeth on the gate top, hit the foil, shook his head and walked away. So maybe he will relocate his fix :laughing:

I have always heard good things about the Schiller videos. I am going to try some exercises with him while we wait for the end of his rest period, the end of the mud and for the dually to be back in service.

I am not sure what else I can do. He came to me with the habit and he has old scars on his neck from wearing poorly fit/ dirty collars. So this is long term with him and I just have to accept my otherwise lovely horse is junkie, :laughing:

2 Likes
#16

I hear you! It sounds like you’ve already got him in a pretty ideal management system.

My horse likes the Shires Carrot Ball and the Uncle Jimmy’s Treat Balls. Something like the Uncle Jimmy’s might be a good option if he has to be stuck inside. Saving your collar for when you really need it is a great idea.

I think it would be super to try and relocate his cribbing spot to a less annoying location. I wouldn’t want to set my teeth in aluminum foil either!

Warwick Schiller says that cribbers are an excellent opportunity for humans to practice controlling their emotions. Like learning to not let it bother you. Be like Buddha!

  • hard to be like Buddha when horsie is waking you up in the pre dawn hours though
2 Likes
#17

That’s a lot of calories for a horse bordering on a BCS 7 which I don’t consider ok even for Winter.

Special Care is 10% starch - not terrible, but not exactly low either. For context, IR horses need starch <- 4% The sugar is low, 3%, so the total NSC isn’t bad.

Personally, I’d use a ration balancer, with some beet pulp if he needs some additional calories. I’d drop the BOSS - very high Omega 6. Add flax while he’s not on grass - cheaper than the Smart Omega

And no, I would not add oats. Where did you read that?

on the selenium study - it’s correlation, NOT causation. There’s nothing indicating whether cribbing causes low Se, or low Se causes cribbing. Blood test always. If he’s normal to low, it could be an interesting experiment to add 2-3mg additional and re-test in 2-3 months and see if anything changes.

2 Likes
#18

Purina Outlast is a good and inexpensive supplement to help keep the ulcers from coming back. My guy was getting it 3 times a day in the warm weather, but I had to increase to 4 times a day in the winter. He doesn’t crib, but it prone to ulcers.

#19

A cribber is a being with an “addictive personality”. That is, he is “tipping his hand” that he is “sensitive” and sometimes “intense”, that stresses in his life (that may or may not be avoidable or identifiable) effect him, that he “notices” these stresses, and is needing an addiction as a “crutch” to help him get through life. As an owner of a cribber, you have been given this information, that he is “sensitive”, that he notices what he sees as stress, and he needs a crutch to help him through life as he sees it. YOU may not see these things as stresses, but he does. What those things are that he sees as stresses can be extremely variable, including the normal things that we know do stress horses (illness, injury, stabling, bad training, bad riding), and things that you will never identify (weather, noises, herd dynamics etc). He may have once been stabled next to a horse that he doesn’t like, and that may have been his trigger. Because cribbers are susceptible to stress, they are also susceptible to ulcer issues, and the two are often but not always related or seen together. The pain from the ulcer may have been his trigger of his acquiring the habit/addiction. Once addicted to the release of endorphins that addictive behaviour provides, the addiction continues long after the source of stress is removed or resolved. Endorphins make the addict “feel better”. An addict finds an addictive behaviour that works for him, to feel better. Humans and horses are both affected by these issues, humans can become addicted to extremely harmful behaviours, far worse and more damaging than cribbing. IMO, cribbing is akin to a human who chews his fingernails… not the best thing and mildly annoying to watch, but not heroin.

Yes, if your cribber is waking you up at night by cribbing next to your bedroom, running an electric wire where you don’t want him to crib will solve your problem. Use a solar box, the ticking from a plug in box will also keep you awake, the solar boxes are quieter, and they do work day and night. As you have found, cribbing straps are always questionable as to whether they will stop the behaviour, often they don’t, and removing the addiction from the addict doesn’t make him feel any better about himself, or help him dealing with any stresses he encounters in his life, and does not cure his addiction. Give him a nice place to partake of his habit, away from your bedroom window. Practically all cribbers will self limit their cribbing, just like most human smokers do. They may need to experiment a bit to find their limit. Since tooth wear is an issue with a heavy cribber, a rubber tub is something you can offer. My dedicated cribber loves her monster tractor tire which is our hay feeder. It weighs 400 lbs, and does not shift position due to her secondary use of it. That way, she can eat and crib at the same time… bonus! I got over using cribbing straps 40 years ago.

I have had a number of cribbers over the years, and often they have been outstanding athletes… because they are sensitive, emotional, and have a huge work ethic. They are susceptible to stress, because of their work ethic, and being sensitive, they are often empathic to their rider’s slight cues… they CARE about doing their work to the best of their ability, and yes, they will stress about that. No matter exactly WHAT their work is, they want to excel. They will maybe try harder than one who is not too susceptible to stress. Not every superstar is a cribber, some elite athletes can be elite without being as sensitive or have an addictive personality. But it is amazing how many equine superstars are cribbers. Just like over achieving humans, their intense, sensitive and addictive personality may lead to illness or early death. So be aware of that.

4 Likes
#20

While I fully understand articles published by supplement companies should be viewed with a grain of salt (or a full cup of salt), I found this tidbit from the article more than interesting

“with the lowest levels measured while horses were actually cribbing”

That there would be a change in Se levels noted on blood tests between a resting state and cribbing is fascinating. But perhaps it’s a result of different oxygen levels or something. I’m not medically educated at all so my understanding is quite limited.

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