I haven’t read the other responses, but am responding based on my own experience. I fell in love with a 3 year old Anglo-Trakhener. At the vetting, OCD lesion in stifle. I decided to roll the dice. Went to surgery at Virginia Tech. Doc said lesion was so imbedded that he elected not to take it. Horse went on to have a championship Hunter career and to be the love of my life. The bet worked for me.
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That’s a great story, but depending on location and type of lesion, the prognosis can range from “likely cosmetic issue only” to not very good. That’s why it’s so important to get the advice of a veterinarian that sees and operates on a lot of these lesions.
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When it’s in a horse you are looking to buy there’s some other factors that come into play. Like budget and what additional, advanced diagnostics or possible uninsured surgery will add to the cost of acquiring the horse with what sounds like a 50-50 prognosis. For some the risk is reasonable, for others it’s not worth it.
Update: The horse was sold before the seller sent me the x-rays from the PPE.
Sorry that the horse sold so quickly but you more than likely dodged a bullet
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Just curious (and slightly off topic) - did you pay for the PPE and xrays, or did the seller pay for them? Generally, once a horse is going through the PPE (since the buyer usually has invested significant $ in that PPE), it should not be sold to someone else. Most sales contracts I’ve seen (and used) give the buyer a week or two to arrange the PPE and make a decision.
Yeah…experience has taught me sellers you are dealing with remotely might send you a PPE but verifying the details is impossible. Trust but verify.
I assume the reason this horse was advertised with that information and very low price was because the seller attended the PPE, the results of which caused the would-be buyer to bail. Horse was just being put on the market again.
The PPE results and the x-ray I was waiting for were not mine. I had requested these from the seller after she said she was getting them and the horse was advertised a second time.
Seller had a cell phone picture of a radiograph on the vet’s laptop. That wasn’t useful to me.
When we vet a horse with a serious issue that causes us to bail, we usually give the results to the seller to help the horse get looked after/sold ethically.
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That is very generous of you, but is not the industry norm. My experience has been, most potential buyers want the owner to BUY the xrays if they pass on the horse. I use to breed and sold a few horses every year - and have had a total of ONE potential buyer give me free xrays. And I know several other breeders, and same story - no one ever gives away xrays.
I try to attend every PPE so I at least can disclose what was discovered in a prior PPE. But at some of the bigger vet hospitals, they actually take the buyer into a private room to discuss findings - and the seller is not allowed in unless the buyer specifically invites them.
My point in my post, a seller SHOULD provide some time (a week or two) for a buyer to arrange a PPE and review those findings BEFORE offering the horse for sale to someone else. I wouldn’t expect a seller to keep the horse “off the market” forever, but once the seller has spent money for the PPE, they should be given at least a few days AFTER the PPE results are provided to decide whether to buy or bail.
In this case our OP had the flaw disclosed to her via the seller, who had obtained the information from a prior PPE. It does not sound like she had the horse under contract, nor was in the process of vetting it herself–just mulling over a piece of information given to her.
But absolutely agreed, should our OP have had the horse in the PPE process herself she should have had more time to obtain consultation/evaluation of the results.
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Sorry to be a dissenter, but we buy young prospects every year to develop. We have roughly a 50% pass fail-rate on our PPE’s as a buyer (we have to be a little pickier than most buyers since the horses will be available for resale.) If we take a pass on a horse, we always make the PPE available to the owner. I know other buyers that do the same.
I know of one mid-sized breeder that puts it in her contract that if the buyer chooses not to complete the purchase due to an unsatisfactory PPE, the results of the PPE would be released to the seller. I’ve seen other sellers do the same.
From a seller’s perspective, I have had prospective buyers release their PPE results to me when something in the PPE cause them to walk away from a horse we were selling. Not always, but it happens and we had to ask. Obviously the buyer almost always releases the PPE results if they are trying to negotiate a better price.
In my view, the cost of a PPE is “table stakes” that a buyer will need to anti up if they want to be in the game. Offering to sell the PPE radiographs to the seller is not unheard of, but it only happened once to this seller. The offer was made by a rookie buyer that thought a small hock spur was the end of the world. I declined to buy the PPE radiographs, had my own vet take shots of the hock in question, made those views available to future buyers and the horse was sold. Few sellers are likely to pay hundreds (or thousands) to buy a PPE from a prospective buyer, when they can plunk down $100 or $200 and get views of the joint in question.
While it may not be “industry norm” for a buyer to release the results of a PPE after they walk away, it happens often enough that I would not view it as an oddity.
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If I’m paying potentially several hundred for X-rays, I’m not just giving those to the seller of the horse. They want their vet’s opinion, they can pay for it or buy my X-rays from me. I’m certainly not going to do them the favor of shouldering cost so they don’t have to.
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If I pass on the horse the X rays are useless to me. I always give them to the seller. What is the point of keeping them? I might think differently if I thought the seller knew of the condition but that has never happened to me…most of the time a bad X Ray is asymptomatic or I wouldn’t be vetting the horse, I am pretty good at seeing mild lameness.
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Perhaps it is very different in different parts of the country. I’m on the West Coast, and it is very unusual to have that happen. As Soloud says - buyer isn’t inclined to give xrays to seller when buyer paid for them. I do think xrays are more expensive here too - it is about $50/view or about $1000 to $1500 for a full set of xrays (hocks, stifles, front feet, front pasterns). I know a lot of breeders, AND a lot of buyers, and it just is not the norm in our part of the country.
We are located in the Northeast, but we shop across the country, including the West Coast. The breeder I mentioned in my first post is on the West Coast.
Depending on the vet, views usually run about $45 to $55 a piece. Often there is a set up fee, sometimes an archive fee. All in, our “basic” vetting runs about 2.5K.
While it is disappointing to plunk down 2.5K give or take to vet a horse and have the vet tell you to stay away, the PPE will not benefit the buyer if the buyer doesn’t purchase the horse. Sharing the PPE means the horse is subjected to less poking and prodding, it reduces the carbon footprint a little and if you are a repeat buyer, it builds goodwill. What goes around comes around. I always offer to release the results of the PPE when I walk away. But that is just me and my two cents.
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Yeah, I’m just really not willing to bear that expense and let the owner or next buyer have the benefit of it. My experience is that owners of horses completely discount PPE results whether a buyer passes or not because they assume the vet was wrong and they’ll just use a different vet for the next buyer. If the seller wants to have Xrays to provide the next buyer, they can buy them from me. I’m not just giving them up for free simply because I’m already out the money - nor do I particularly feel I need to build goodwill with someone who was apparently trying to sell me a potentially lame horse. Another buyer is going to do their own PPE anyway so they’re not going to use my results.
I wouldn’t buy from a seller who forced me to give up the xrays to them for free in their sales contract. What a presumptuous thing to do. I paid for them, I own them, they’re not yours with no expense to you.
I guess you’re a more generous buyer than I am but if I’m already out $2.5k I’m not going to give that to the seller just because I like them. And if they expect me to, I’m not going to be going back to them for more horses, either.
Giving them the xrays and results does zero to ensure the horse is “sold ethically” if the seller just sticks them in a folder and doesn’t mention it to the next buyer, which is, in my experience, what all sellers of horses do.
This isn’t really accurate. The buyer usually chooses the vet that performs the PPE. The vet is contractually bound to act on behalf of their client (the buyer).
Just because the PPE was disappointing, doesn’t mean the seller was trying to sell anyone a lame horse. Anyone who has spent time buying or selling knows there are plenty of ethical people out there who are just as surprised as the buyer when the PPE results are disappointing
If turning over the results of the PPE is written into a contract, no one is being forced to do anything. The buyer is free to refuse the terms of the contract, and walk away from the PPE. It is a little out of the norm for a seller to contractually require the results of the PPE are released to them, but it happens and you can also read on this BB where posters suggest the same.
Turning over the results of the PPE isn’t really about “liking” anyone or being generous. It is about being professional and businesslike. I’m sure most buyers would appreciate having access to any PPE results that might have been performed on the horse before they arrived on the scene. I don’t think anyone said sellers expect buyers to give up the results of a PPE. I think the point is some folks choose to do so because they think it is in the interest of the horse and they believe it is the right thing to do.
To be honest, not all sellers stick the PPE results in a folder. I certainly don’t. And I know there are plenty of breeders and sellers on this BB that don’t hide things in a folder.
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If I did an expensive PPE with multiple radiographs + exam that revealed significant issue(s)that caused me to reject the horse that I was ready to buy and was otherwise advertised as sound and also offered no previous disclosures, images, or other vet report? No way (!) that I’d just give the seller the images or PPE vet report. Nothing to do with if the seller has any previous idea of problems or any images or not. Either way, the images and report have a high dollar value to some party. Even if that party is isn’t you at that point. Sellers who don’t pony up for heir own images can’t expect disappointed buyers to just GIVE those to them. Doesn’t even matter if they are being honest or not. I wouldn’t give it away to anyone, even a known honest seller with which I have a good relationship.
Does the seller want the vet report and/or images? Great, sell them to the seller at least 50-75% cost of entire thing. They will welcome it as a bargain if they truly surprised and interested in using that info for that horse in the future. Maybe not so much if they already knew or wish to cover it up when going forward to sell horse anyway… And if you get a bad vibe about the situation, like that they mislead you and now want free lameness exam and imaging on your dime, then just refuse to release it altogether.
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I don’t think any sellers said they expect buyers to turn over the results of a disappointing PPE to the seller. I think what has been said is that some buyers choose to do so.
Here is the issue with that line of logic. If a horse “fails” a PPE, it is usually only one or two joints that are in question. Therefore, only a few views in the entire PPE are of value to the seller. If the buyer is asking for 50% of the cost of the PPE and the seller is only interested in 2, 3 or 4 views the seller isn’t likely to purchase the PPE. It does not make any economic sense to do so. The buyer is just going to have their personal vet take those 2, 3 or 4 views for $100 or $200 and be done with it.
This is an interesting thread. I’m surprised that it is so divisive. I’m also surprised that so many potential buyers suspect the sellers they are working with are distrustful.
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