OCD in a stifle in a 3-year-old-- place a bet or fold?

[mvp]

All right you experts, get out your crystal balls.

I found a very nice Arabian/WB (hard to find in the first place) who just flunked a PPE and is now a deal. Here’s the deets and my questions.

1. A three year old, in work and sound. X-ray was done only because of the PPE. Filly flexed sound,

2. Vet thinks this is “normal in some horses’ growth” and might resolve itself if her workload for now were kept appropriately light. If the horse actually becomes unsound, he recommends treating yearly with steroids and, if necessary, surgery to remove the chip.

3. Hocks and the other stifle are clean.

And my questions:

1. Do experts agree that OCD lesions on, say, a 3 year old won’t be found on the same horse at 5?

2. Cost and success of doing surgery? In a stifle?

That said, I think I’m generally scared of OCD in stifles. Am I right to be?

Thanks, y’all.

[JB]

Won’t be found? I don’t think anyone can say that.

Might not be found is more likely. Young WBs are fairly notorious for having lesions that disappear. It’s less likely that one seen at 3 will disappear, than one seen at 1, but it isn’t rare, not from what I have followed on the breeding scene over the last 15-20 years.

I would consult with several different surgeons who have seen and operated (or not) on stifle lesions in WB and WB crosses, to see what they think of the rads, if you are serious about pursuing this filly.

[Dr_Doolittle]

How is a three-year-old WB cross in “real work?”

Anyway, it depends on whether you want to pony up the money to have the surgery done prophylactically, or buy the horse and take a chance that since it’s now sound – though at three years old how can it really be tested under “work conditions”? - The OCD may resolve itself and never cause a problem, or may become an issue down the road, at which point you can address it then.

A bit of a crapshoot, and of course no one has a crystal ball. How much do you like this horse? How good is its general conformation? Temperament?

[khall]

I have dealt with OCD in stifles, would not do it again. Bought as 3 month old, at 5 was diagnosed with the OCD bilateral, L worse than R. Quit riding her at 6 or 7 (cannot remember), injections were not holding her. This was way before IRAP etc. She had 2 foals for me, my main riding horse and his sister. Neither have OCD issues. (Believe their dam’s was nutrition or lack there of) Put her on HA supp and it really helped. Was able to put her back into work after foals and stayed sound for many years until she had to be stalled for 10 months in 2015 after bad founder. Was lame afterwards, so did IRAP (cannot have any steroids anymore, she foundered on dex)

Usually stifle issues are much harder to deal with than hock issues.

The highest she schooled was some 3rd, all but changes.

[horsepoor]

I’ve had two horses with stifle OCD. Both had surgery and both returned to work, but one fell apart elsewhere and the other had continuing stifle problems that were not easily managed. There is a reason that I am pretty adamant about x-raying stifles now on a PPE! Both of my stifle OCD horses flexed great as youngsters but eventually had issues once they went into regular work – and my vets said the lesions/chips were probably already there and visible when I bought them as 2 year olds but I didn’t x-ray so we didn’t find it. The one was a big tank of a horse and even when he was lame, flexions did not zero it down to the stifle – we only found it after a bone scan lit up in that region and we x-rayed.

Stifle OCD can be in different areas that can be better or worse. My two were in the “good” area that was not weight bearing. I’ve done a vetting where a lesion showed up in the weight bearing part of the joint and my (super wonderful) vet told me to run away – it was a time bomb and while not bothering the horse at that time, he felt it was a matter of time before it would.

As for the surgery – I had one done at OSU and one at Pilchuck. I can’t remember the exact cost, but it was something like $2,000 at OSU (in 2003 maybe?) and closer to $3,000 at Pilchuck in 2009. I’m sure those have gone up by now!

[mvp]

@horsepoor

I’ve had two horses with stifle OCD. Both had surgery and both returned to work, but one fell apart elsewhere and the other had continuing stifle problems that were not easily managed. There is a reason that I am pretty adamant about x-raying stifles now on a PPE! Both of my stifle OCD horses flexed great as youngsters but eventually had issues once they went into regular work – and my vets said the lesions/chips were probably already there and visible when I bought them as 2 year olds but I didn’t x-ray so we didn’t find it. The one was a big tank of a horse and even when he was lame, flexions did not zero it down to the stifle – we only found it after a bone scan lit up in that region and we x-rayed.

Stifle OCD can be in different areas that can be better or worse. My two were in the “good” area that was not weight bearing. I’ve done a vetting where a lesion showed up in the weight bearing part of the joint and my (super wonderful) vet told me to run away – it was a time bomb and while not bothering the horse at that time, he felt it was a matter of time before it would.

As for the surgery – I had one done at OSU and one at Pilchuck. I can’t remember the exact cost, but it was something like $2,000 at OSU (in 2003 maybe?) and closer to $3,000 at Pilchuck in 2009. I’m sure those have gone up by now!

Thanks to everyone who replied. I especially appreciated your response, horsepoor, since you are in my neck of the woods. Do you have favorite surgeons at either place to consult?

I did know that there were better and worse places to have OCD lesions in a hock, but not in the stifle. I don’t know enough about where these are to tell you all.

As to how/why this filly is in work and what she’s doing isn’t something I know yet. She looks way more mature than my own Arab/WB looked at 3 (or 5 for that matter).

I’m just beginning this research, so I’ll let you guys know what I discover as it happens.

[horsepoor]

@mvp

Thanks to everyone who replied. I especially appreciated your response, horsepoor, since you are in my neck of the woods. Do you have favorite surgeons at either place to consult?

Both horses were originally diagnosed by Mark Revenaugh (https://www.equinepi.com/). Surgeons were Dr. Huber at OSU and Dr. Bryant at Pilchuck. I think they are both at those locations still, but I’m not sure.

[UrbanHennery]

Dr Bryant is recovering from a recent stroke so not available for consult. I believe Pilchuck has a new surgeon (predates Bryant’s illness), but I’m not sure of his name.

[findeight]

You don’t know what kind of work the horse is doing now? I’d find out exactly before making any decisions. Sound in the words of a seller with no details needs to be fleshed out. If it’s dinking around an arena W-T-C, which is about the most a 3 year old needs to be doing, it’s not a predictor of soundness when the real work starts, 5 day a week riding, collection, Jumping etc. plus reaching a mature size and weight, most horses not doing much do go sound.

What do you want to do with the horse? And do you keep at home or pay to board out a single horse? Sometimes questionable prospects can be worth a risk for those with less expensive places to rehab, lay them up or retire them, not so much for single horse owners boarding out with nothing else to ride.

Maybe. Maybe not. Be more inclined to take it on if it was in the hock.

[MysticOakRanch]

Agree with JB - OCD may disappear in a young horse - as in yearling. By 3, it is MUCH LESS LIKELY to disappear. I’ve seen lesions disappear in weaners and yearlings, never seen one disappear in a 3 year old.

And I’d also be bothered by a 3 year old “in work and sound” - I assume this is a horse that is barely turning 3, since this is February? So how long has this young, growing horse been “in work”? What kind of work? This would bother me for long term soundness just as much as the stifle lesion.

As for cost of surgery - get a quote, and look at the support too - stifle injections. Stifle is an area of concern - I would be very hesitant to take on such a horse - unless maybe it was a give away.

If you are specifically looking for an Arab WB cross - have you looked in CA and AZ? I think you are more likely to find that cross out here on the Western edge of the country - they aren’t all that unusual here. The Arab Sport Horse Show Circuit is very active. Odds are, the cost of shipping a horse from CA will be less then the cost of stifle surgery and rehab…

[findeight]

Think this OP is out west…the fact it’s 3 years old plus it’s in the stifle scares me. and I never bought a horse that was 100% sound. But I only bought older and doing intended job even if not completely polished at it. And I have bought an older horse in work lwith OCD in the hock that really was never an issue. Only real young one I bought proved unsound when it got older and got put to real work. Literally had to give it away.

Anyway, I’m not risk averse, you have to take on some risk on a budget, but this one has too many questions for my liking.

[halt]

there are some places i’d be willing to accept OCD lesions but the stifle is not one of them, especially in a 3 y/o. unfortunately, i would fold.

it has not been my experience that they go away at that age, and that is one area that when they show up, they tend to stay …

[2tempe]

I at one time passed on a lovely 6 yr old WB/TB cross who had ocd lesion in stifle. Vet said “question of when not if it will be trouble”. That (though one vet’s opinion) was enough to send me running. Stifle issues in general can be tricky when they develop and I would not buy a horse that had one looming, even if sound.

[Risuena]

I had a thread a few years back which included waffling over whether or not to purchase a horse with stifle OCD. I placed a bet, and so far I’ve been lucky. My horse is much sounder than I am! (yay?). My experience/thought process:

• My horse’s was a flap on the lateral trochlear ridge. If it was anywhere else (i.e. the femoral condyle) or if there was a cyst I would have never considered purchasing him.

• I had my vet examine him carefully and also consulted with a surgeon. I valued and took into consideration the opinions I got on these forums but ultimately relied on the opinions of those who had their hands on the horse, watched him move, and looked at the films. My vet also consulted with his partner (both have decades of experience), so I had multiple opinions. My vet also has a reputation for being pretty conservative so that fact that he didn’t advise me to run screaming made me more open to the acknowledged risk.

• While I wanted an athletic and sound horse, realistically my goals are lower-level, so I’m not asking a ton from him. I might not have bought him if I was looking for an upper-level horse.

• I was able to have him on trial, and ultimately that was a big impact on my decision. He’s far from perfect, but he’s just a really good match for me. He’s exactly what I was looking for. I suspect that if I hadn’t had him on trial the cons may have outweighed the pros.

Bottom line, in my experience, I don’t think there’s a clear answer - It’s definitely a gamble…it’s all about the pros/cons and being willing to take the risk based on your goals and the rest of the qualities of the horse in front of you. (Unless it’s in the femoral condyle - then run!) I surprised myself since I’m pretty risk-adverse, maybe this was my mid-life crisis.

Oh, and I agree with the posters above that said it was unlikely to go away in a 3 year-old.

[mvp]

Thanks you guys. My hope was that this lesion would, in fact, disappear or that prophylactic surgery was a safe bet. I want/need a horse that can have a full career. At least at 3 I want to be able to have that.

[BeeHoney]

I think your two choices are to either 1) pass or 2) get a second opinion from a surgeon who deals with a lot of OCDs.

IME, the only OCDs that go away are the ones in much younger horses (weanlings, for example). I don’t think an OCD in a three year old is going to go away, though I’m not a vet. Chip type OCDs obviously never go away. Depending on the lesion (size and location), prognosis with surgery can be excellent if the horse is operated on at an early age when bone growth is not yet complete. I have a gelding that had OCD surgery in a hock and a stifle in the fall of his yearling year–he’s in his teens now, sound, and has clean X-rays. You’d never know the surgery had been done. This is the case for many/most young horses that have OCD surgery performed at an early age. But, it’s my understanding that the prognosis is not always as favorable when the surgery is performed later, after the bones are no longer growing. The prognosis also depends on the size and location of the lesion. I think you also have to consider the risks of surgery, anesthesia, and post-op recovery/layup. Given all those variables, I think that a second opinion from a veterinary surgeon who does a lot of these surgeries would help you make an informed decision.

[vineyridge]

I’d send the radiographs to Rood and Riddle or Hagyard in Lexington. They are the go to places for million dollar racing TBs, and would be as expert on this as it is possible to get. They are also not so very far from Ohio.

[findeight]

I thought OP was out west…Davis has a great vet school, perhaps that’s an option if OP wants to spend a little to verify it’s worth a gamble. Sometimes chasing a prognosis at your expense on a horse you are looking to buy ends up adding too much to the acquisition cost, especially if a 2k+ surgery is the best option.

[oldernewbie]

@vineyridge

I’d send the radiographs to Rood and Riddle or Hagyard in Lexington. They are the go to places for million dollar racing TBs, and would be as expert on this as it is possible to get. They are also not so very far from Ohio.

I think the “O” in OSU mentioned in an earlier post = Oregon…

[freshman]

OSU means Oklahoma State to me. Too many “O” states with vet schools, now that I think about it, lol.