OCD's in hocks of a 2yo resale horse: deal breaker?

[magentagiraffe]

Hello collective knowledge of COH!

I’m looking at a very nicely bred 2yo Danish baby. The last potential buyer didn’t take him because OCD’s were found in both hocks. Do you think that this is a deal breaker for a horse meant for resale? Anyone have experience with surgery and long term outcome in this situation? A new set of x rays have been taken and sent to a surgeon, but haven’t been read yet.

I do not believe it to be genetic-rather very poor nutrition and care for mare and baby. :mad: don’t know what kind of a difference that makes in outcome. I’m a little worried about the other potential issues that could crop up from poor care over the first developmental years.

Please share your experiences-good, bad, or ugly. Many thanks in advance!

[HorseLuvr]

Yes, this is a definite deal breaker and I would pass. At 2 years old, you want to start with a clean slate.

[pinkpony321]

You can get the surgery done but it will definitely affect sale. How were the quality of the x-rays? Id get crystal clear ones done and send them to an ortho specialist for a consult before doing ANYTHING. A consult with a top notch Doctor isn’t that expensive.

It all depends on how cheap the horse is and what it’s job will be, I think. But for me it’s 99.9% probably a deal breaker.

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=magentagiraffe;8613895]
Hello collective knowledge of COH!

I’m looking at a very nicely bred 2yo Danish baby. The last potential buyer didn’t take him because OCD’s were found in both hocks. Do you think that this is a deal breaker for a horse meant for resale? Anyone have experience with surgery and long term outcome in this situation? A new set of x rays have been taken and sent to a surgeon, but haven’t been read yet.

I do not believe it to be genetic-rather very poor nutrition and care for mare and baby. :mad: don’t know what kind of a difference that makes in outcome. I’m a little worried about the other potential issues that could crop up from poor care over the first developmental years.

Please share your experiences-good, bad, or ugly. Many thanks in advance![/QUOTE]

I wouldnt knowingly purchase a 2yo with known health issues. One thing if a baby you already own develops OCD versus purchssing a known issue.

Surgical outcomes have been good in my experience but again not anything I would sign myself up for given another choice.

[mvp]

Some locations for OCD lesions are better than others. I bought a 5 year old who had one DIRT lesion removed from one of her hocks when it showed up causing soreness in her as a yearling.

Here’s what I learned:

If the lesion is in the right place and taken care of (and the horse is young/still growing), it might not be a problem. (That’s why it would be useful to know how long this horse has had a problem brewing and what difference it makes if the horse is older.)

Any good surgeon would X-ray the other hock.

All of the above came from my discussion with the vet who did the PPE on this mare; his clinic (but a different doctor) had done the surgery, so all records were available to me/PPE vet at the time.

And if I were buying, I’d absolutely X-ray the stifles, too. I was told that lameness caused by OCD in the stifle joint typically shows up later in development (perhaps at that pesky 5-year-old year when you already have some money and hope invested in them.) And, as I understand it, there is no “good location” in the stifle for an OCD lesion.

I’m not educated about the nature/nurture cause of OCD. I’m also a hard-ass about what gets bred. I would not buy a horse with OCD to breed, and so I would not consider this mare’s fertility as adding value to her or a hedge against future unsoundness. In other words, the owner should do the surgery (if it will help) and/or subtract the price of that and the rehab and make this filly pretty cheap.

I’m not an expert, but this is my limited experience. I’ll stay tuned to see what others who know more can add.

[magentagiraffe]

Thank you everyone so far. I forgot to ask if anyone knows of a top notch specialist I could contact for a consult.

[pinkpony321]

[QUOTE=magentagiraffe;8613925]
Thank you everyone so far. I forgot to ask if anyone knows of a top notch specialist I could contact for a consult.[/QUOTE]

Where are you located? I’ve used Dr. Berry at Woodside in Richmond. Or you could shell out big bucks for Dr.Allen in Middleburg.
Any large teaching hospital will have someone though.

[findeight]

How much cash are you willing to throw at this in hopes of recouping your investment when you sell it?

You could run up quite a few thousands trying to do surgery on both hocks since insurance would exclude the condition. It’s even expensive to get the proper diagnostics done. If you wanted to keep it and have a fat wallet to pay for all the diagnostics and surgeries, I could see it. Maybe. But not at all in a resale horse. And we are all assuming surgery will solve the problem in both hocks.

Beware the further effects of malnutrition in very young horses as they get to adulthood too. If it was so bad you think it caused OCD what else? Lots like that end up with stunted growth that never catches up. I wasn’t aware of malnourishment being a direct cause of arthritis/OCD though.

Just can’t see throwing what has to be at least 5k for surgeries with no guarantees of long term success in a very young, unstarted sale prospect. That’s assuming the owner will let you spend a bunch of money on first rate diagnostics to see if they can be surgically removed before you decide to buy as well.

[mvp]

OP, I forgot about the resale requirement.

Read the opinions here and see how little people are willing to compromise on any sign of future unsoundness.

IMO, they’ll need to pay lots for a horse who, all other things being equal, has a squeaky-clean PPE that goes with him. And not actively shopping, it’s easy to issue policy statements like that. Once you see how much “fancy” “trained” “winning” and “sound plus vetted rigorously” costs, you might be willing to suck it up and accept some risk for less money.

But that “problem” for your buyers doesn’t matter…but it does mean that there will be a limit to what you can charge for this horse, for most buyers. They might not be willing to do as I did and learn about the OCD and what had been done. And, I’ll add, my horse was young, green, sound and cheap in the first place.

I don’t think I could re-sell her as an expensive horse without lots of training and a long show record. So she’s not an investment horse. I think that’s partially due to her OCD history that emerged and was resolved when she was a yearling. But for some buyers, as you can see from this thread, that would be enough to break the deal… even if the mare were 10 and had been sound for all of her working career.

[Equibrit]

Good article; http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/academics/clinsci/equine-orthopaedic-research-center/orthopaedic-topics/Pages/osteochondritis-dissecans.aspx

[BeeHoney]

The short answer is “no.”

BUT:
Many OCDs can easily be treated surgically, and if the surgery is done early and by an experienced surgeon the long term prognosis generally is excellent.

As a breeder of large horses, OCDs are going to happen sometimes no matter what. Breeders of large horses who say they “never” have had an OCD are either lying or simply don’t do screening X-rays. Some bloodlines (IME bigger horses) are worse than others. IMO, OCDs cropping up in young horses is a PITA and costs some money, but otherwise is generally NBD in terms of the horse’s competitive career.

I would absolutely purchase a two year old that had OCDs removed uneventfully and was fully recovered. But, in general, I wouldn’t go out and buy a horse with untreated OCDs. Why? Surgery can be a risk, plus it is work to do the layup afterwards. I would prefer that the seller be responsible that risk and inconvenience.

As far as resale, most higher end WB buyers are savvy to the fact that a history of an uncomplicated OCD removal is NBD. They will probably be X-raying the horse anyway and will care more about those films and the horse’s current soundness than the history of the OCD. I could see buyers balking if the horse had surgery but then had not done anything to “prove” its soundness afterwards.

FWIW, a horse with a history of OCD surgery absolutely CAN have a squeaky clean PPE with pristine X-rays. I’m not a vet, and an experienced surgeon could comment with more detail on that, but none of the youngsters I’ve ever seen operated on have had radiographic evidence of the surgery afterwards. Obviously, the history of the surgery should be disclosed in an honest fashion, but many times it isn’t. However, when a horse is well into its competitive career the history of uncomplicated OCD surgery as a 1-2 year old is likely irrelevant anyway.

Now, if someone offered me an incredibly well bred youngster that I really liked at a ridiculously low price, then it might be worth it to me to shoulder the expense and risk of surgery. Obviously I would have my surgeon review things first to make sure that he agreed that a good outcome was likely based on the size and location of the lesion/s and the age of the horse.

[findeight]

Heck, I paid good money for one with OCD that never bothered it…but it actually was mvp’s hypothetical 10 year old well used and trained show Hunter. That one did have hock trouble but it was due to normal tread wear, not the OCD.

I still would not buy an unstarted 2 year old with it without additional diagnostics and interpretation by qualified specialists, at sellers expense most likely. Certainly before paying for it. Not for myself unless there was proof they were fully operable with good prognosis. Not for resale, period, as little hope for a short term sale and recovering purchase and surgical costs. Long term it just fills up the money pit to keep, break and train with surgical costs with just about no hope of ever seeing back.

Plus that, as mentioned, a percentage of the buyer pool won’t touch one without the surgery and maybe even with if some lesions remain on a still young horse. Good show record can overcome some of that but getting a goid record over a decent period of time throws more into that money pit.

[arlosmine]

Nope, wouldn’t buy the horse in question as an investment prospect. The combination of poor nutrition, plus OCD would be a deal breaker for me. I would not want to shoulder the risk of surgical complications. I’d rather pay more for a horse whose breeder did that.
Yes, the impact of successful OCD surgery on future price tag deminishes with the ensuing years of successful training and show record…but if you were planning in a quick turnaround in the next year or three, the risk future soundness problems will not be disproven by use.
Also, even before surgery, you are looking at potentially 1k plus in hunting for other OCD elsewhere. Depending on what you plan for PPE, you may be doing those x rays anyway, but I still wouldn’t “go there”. I would find a two year old minus OCD for a resale project. The horse will find some way to lame itself in the training process (even if temporarily), so stack the deck in your favor!

[gottagrey]

I’d pass as well - especially as a resale project. You are already looking a expenses for surgery and rehab plus whatever comes along. There are a lot of nice horses out there why take a chance on this one?

[BeeHoney]

Yes, as Arlosmine suggests, you would need a full set of X-rays to make sure no other joints are affected. The previous buyer who passed may not have taken a full set–they may have stopped the exam as soon as they found a deal breaker. It would be fair to expect the seller to pay for the set of X-rays.

[Bent_Hickory]

The race horse industry doesn’t seem to think OCD is a major problem:

http://www.consignorsandbreeders.com/Domains/www.consignorsandbreeders.com/CMSFiles/Docs/CBA-OCDBook.pdf

There is a more recent study that X-rayed a bunch of young horses (yearlings?) and then X-rayed them again at a later age (3?). Many of the OCDs found in the young horses were resolved naturally, without intervention, and did not appear in their later X-rays.

[drkarins]

If you decide to pursue this horse, also be sure to Xray the neck. OCD in the neck - and/or Wobblers - may not show up yet in a two year old.

Best of luck to you.

[PhoenixFarm]

I bought a horse for a client with OCD. A previous buyer had done a vetting and found OCD in the stifle. The breeder/owner had already done the surgery at their expense, the surgical outcome was considered “stellar” and we vetted it within an inch of its life. . . And still paid about 25% of the original asking price before The previous buyer found the OCD in their PPE.

If it’s to be a personal horse and it gives you the opportunity (as it did my clients) to get a horse you’d never be able to afford otherwise, maybe. For resale? Never.

[Big_Tag]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8615470]
The race horse industry doesn’t seem to think OCD is a major problem:

http://www.consignorsandbreeders.com/Domains/www.consignorsandbreeders.com/CMSFiles/Docs/CBA-OCDBook.pdf

There is a more recent study that X-rayed a bunch of young horses (yearlings?) and then X-rayed them again at a later age (3?). Many of the OCDs found in the young horses were resolved naturally, without intervention, and did not appear in their later X-rays.[/QUOTE]

You see a lot of yearlings who have had OCDs removed prior at the yearling sales and it’s really not a deal-breaker unless their hocks are boggy messes thereafter…and even then, you can sometimes snag a nice deal on big hocks that don’t ever really bother a horse. But, as a resale, I would be concerned.

[findeight]

The racing industry is hardly a shining beacon of producing horses that stay sound in regular competition into their early teens…some ignore the possibility of future complications as they have little interest in long term soundness after it retires to the breeding shed or slips off the radar usually no later then age 8, most often 2-4.

Dont get me wrong, I like racing, but their focus is different and IMO, currently racing horses not the best group to base conclusions about future complications on.

Recently spoke to friends who have had the surgery done on several horses…OP is probably looking at least at 4K for simple arthroscopic in both hinds when you include diagnostics and additional charges, might not want to do both legs at once, no idea on that, might need to soend extra time at the clinic adding $$$$ too. It could be much higher if it’s not so simple or there are complications. And, of course, not all are candidates for the surgery nor is it always successful.

Just seems an unecessarily expensive addition to the already risky project of selecting and getting a 2 year old to the point it can be resold. Especially coming out of a neglectful care situation.