DC thank you! Very sick of hearing how upper level riders are killing the sport in this country, don’t deserve to be USEA members, deserve no respect and most certainly no support. Then the same people who make these statements are the first to berate the riders for not being good enough for their standards at the top game.
To some of the posters on this thread, deliberately moving the goalpoasts to make a point is not very sporting.
[QUOTE=TotB;8970756]
DC thank you! Very sick of hearing how upper level riders are killing the sport in this country, don’t deserve to be USEA members, deserve no respect and most certainly no support. Then the same people who make these statements are the first to berate the riders for not being good enough for their standards at the top game.
To some of the posters on this thread, deliberately moving the goalpoasts to make a point is not very sporting.[/QUOTE]
I’m going to defend Viney here. Eventing is a three phase sport. I have no doubt that most of our top riders could buy a dressage horse and finish a third level test on the equivalent of a 46. So what. If they can’t reliably do that on a horse that can go clear xc with minimal time or SJ rails, if any, then her statement stands.
I want them to be better. They should be better. But the solution to their failures isn’t making a bunch of changes to the sport that make it less enjoyable for the rest of us. If that’s their solution, they can shove it and I’m happy for them to keep coming up short at big events.
The solution is for them to work harder and smarter. If you have a position flaw that makes it hard for you to score well in dressage on a normal horse, then rework your seat for a year, don’t go out and buy a horse with fancier gaits (but less ability on xc) to mask your flaws.
[QUOTE=NCRider;8971617]
If they can’t reliably do that on a horse that can go clear xc with minimal time or SJ rails, if any, then her statement stands. [/QUOTE]
Then her statement should have been our riders can’t finish on a dressage score near 46.0. Fine. That’s a lot closer to reality.
Her statement was our riders can’t score a 46.0 on the flat. Here, I’ll even quote it again here:
We have almost 0 riders who can produce a dressage score near 46, much less 40."
That’s a pretty bold statement, and pretty straightforward to verify.
Have at it. Bemoan the state of our sport here in the U.S. I don’t really care what everyone’s individual opinion is. I just can’t stand it when a statement is made that can easily be verified or not, and the basic facts obviously make it incorrect. Then to justify their incorrect statement, the person says ‘but if you read between the lines, here’s the intent of what I meant’.
It’s the internet. All we have are words without visual or aural cues to provide subtext.
Our dressage is not so bad in this country that our horses can’t score a 46.0 on the flat, even overseas.
Our problem is finishing on it, and for that matter another problem is that 46.0 isn’t all that impressive these days on the other side of the pond. Go, discuss, have at those two problems. Just don’t use false statements to back up your arguments. Use true ones.
I don’t think US eventing’s poor showing in world events has ANYTHING to do with dressage. Rather, I think it is a major philosophy of XC riding taught by one school, which has influenced several, and many, of the Team candidates and riders and potential team riders.
This philosophy of training horses for XC hasn’t secured us much in terms of medals or standings over jumps. Consistently the coaching is “good luck, do what you think is best” rather than real knowledge of how a course should be ridden and how the horses should be ridden for success. Watching US horses tip up and stop out is not only discouraging but makes it harder and harder for those coming up to obtain funds to get the important overseas competitions under their belts. Why does anyone think that the US is going to win ANYTHING unless and until our horses are ridden better cross-country?
Phillip’s Bronze was absolutely a product of his hard work and strength in the XC phase of the sport. I am hoping against the odds that this new job description of the coach of the team, will allow Phillip more input to not only his own coached students but possibly to other team candidates. Because his way is working, thank goodness.
Very well said, retread. 
Exactly, retreadeventer. That is what I keep seeing every time.
Is our dressage as consistently excellent as the Germans’? No. But it’s not as godawful horrible as it seems to often be described as here. The US may not always be in 1st, 2nd or 3rd after dressage but they usually are still within striking distance of the podium.
It’s our consistent failure to have horses complete XC without jumping penalties (or at all) that has been our undoing in the big team competitions time after time.
What do you perceive to be the difference between the DOC and PD philosophy of xc training, retread?
Overall, we are on the same page. Facts are facts.
The temperature is 46 degrees. That is a fact. One person will say ‘That is damn cold’. Another will say ‘About time it got comfortable here’. That is spin. It was made clear to me in college that statistics and numbers can be “interpreted” different ways, because fact or not, we are dealing with human minds.
Now to be factual, Vine had used the term ‘almost’, not zero. A small but important distinction. Based upon the facts you laid out, I started to see a downward trend, which may have Viney be prescient by next year if it continued.
If one had the time, dressage scores for FEI events could be evaluated to see if, for scores, there is a trend down, up, or remaining flat. If flat or up, then there is clearly an issue to be addressed by the Coach, USET, and perhaps the NO as a whole. If down (meaning more teams score better low points) then we are already heading in the right direction and we just have to be patient.
I can’t speak for VR, but when I looked at those numbers I did not consider bashing individual teams, I was looking at the blending of individuals into a aggregate number, sum of the whole as it were. A string of numbers is just that, but it tells us nothing. It is when we analyze them they are the ‘facts’ that shape how we look at the results.
Yes, thank you for the education on spin.
I stated the number of pairs who can score near 46.0 based on 2016 dressage scores. I didn’t give an opinion on it. Therefore, no spin.
[QUOTE=JP60;8978229]
Now to be factual, Vine had used the term ‘almost’, not zero. A small but important distinction. [/QUOTE]
Oops, sorry, you’re correct. Next time I see the word ‘almost’ I’ll make sure to round 49 down to zero.
:rolleyes:
Since I had time, I played with the data VR provided. It seems she may have overstated her position, and since you only talked about facts, I’ll show them below. Summary is that out of the data presented (US Teams in 2016 at FEI events), the overall average dressage score was 46.58. Disclosure, I put Vineridge’s post into excel, cleaned it up so I could sort average and sum. If anyone cared for that file, I’m happy to provide it.
32 teams scored an average score below 46, 58 above. As a side note, Bentley’s gets the award for most runs, seven.
These facts mean little unless placed in context with how International teams do or how teams have done year to year. Is 46 good or bad? If Int teams overall score lower then I guess we need to get our collective game together. If they score roughly the same then we are failing in two other phases and we should be able to fix that as well.
Critical review of Professional Eventing in this country is not a bad thing if it begins the process of getting better. I would gather the professional coaches would look at general trends as well as individual performances to see where we may have holes.
Your sarcasm notwithstanding, I was not teaching you what spin meant, but it seemed you did not get my meaning so I tried a clearer example.
These are averaged overall showings
FE Bowman ~ 40.20
RF Scandalous ~ 41.50
Chatwin ~ 41.75
Doesn’t Play Fair ~ 42.48
Fernhill Fugitive ~ 42.55
RF Demeter ~ 42.60
Fernhill By NIght ~ 43.00
NZB Campino ~ 43.20
Veronica ~ 43.63
Harbour Pilot ~ 44.00
I’m Sew Ready ~ 44.05
Arthur ~ 44.10
Mighty Nice ~ 44.33
Fischerrocana FST ~ 44.40
Covert Rights ~ 44.45
Lagos Start ~ 44.50
Military Mind ~ 44.60
Charlie Tango ~ 44.98
Petite Flower ~ 45.00
Carlevo ~ 45.00
Landioso ~ 45.07
Shame On The Moon ~ 45.07
Powell ~ 45.10
Downtown Harrison ~ 45.10
Basco ~ 45.20
The Apprentice ~ 45.23
Cooley Dream ~ 45.30
Catalina ~ 45.55
Ruben D’Ysieux ~ 45.70
Tight Lines ~ 45.70
Indian Mill ~ 45.77
Vandiver ~ 45.95
Loughan Glen ~ 46.30
Super Socks ~ 46.30
Shamwari ~ 46.50
Foxwood HIgh ~ 46.60
Houdini ~ 46.70
Anthony Patch ~ 46.70
Cooley Cross Border ~ 46.70
Sound Prospect ~ 46.70
Pfun ~ 46.73
Super Socks BCF ~ 46.83
Ringwood Magister ~ 46.90
RF Eloquence ~ 46.92
Fernhill Cubalawn ~ 46.93
Bentley’s Best ~ 46.96
Dempsey ~ 47.05
Ballynoe Castle RM ~ 47.10
Hans Dampf ~ 47.13
BM and Steady Eddie ~ 47.20
Who’s A Star ~ 47.20
Welcome Shadow ~ 47.23
Donner ~ 47.30
Eveready ~ 47.30
Mr. Candyman ~ 47.33
Cascani ~ 47.40
Clifton Signature ~ 47.50
Celien ~ 47.50
Simply Priceless ~ 47.55
Pavarotti ~ 47.58
Carry On ~ 47.60
Crackerjack ~ 47.70
Landmark’s Monte Carlo ~ 47.90
Santino ~ 48.00
Lysander ~ 48.00
Prince William ~ 48.00
Delux Z ~ 48.20
Muggle ~ 48.20
Bango ~ 48.30
Copper Beech ~ 48.30
Manoir de Carneville ~ 48.43
Under Suspicion ~ 48.43
My Mitch ~ 48.50
Quasar ~ 48.50
Spring Easy ~ 48.50
South Paw ~ 48.60
BD and Carlevo ~ 48.70
HHS Cooley ~ 48.70
Sportfield Candy ~ 48.80
Revitavet Capato ~ 48.85
Gin & Juice ~ 48.90
Cooley On Show ~ 49.00
Meadowbrook’s Scarlett ~ 49.25
Fernhill Fearless ~ 49.40
Park Trader ~ 49.45
Clip Clop ~ 49.60
Catchascatchcan ~ 49.60
Z ~ 49.70
Center Stage ~ 49.80
Twizted Sister ~ 49.80
~
~
Overall Avg ~ 46.58
I think that the lack of judgement in running the horses at Great meadow should be looked at a little more carefully - that was a totally unnecessary exercise and took out at least 2 solid team horses. Bad judgement!
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