O'Connor now as Eventing Technical Advisor

[Xctrygirl]

I saw this article on EN the other day:

http://eventingnation.com/david-oconnor-to-serve-as-u-s-eventing-technical-advisor-through-2018/

And even in the comments it seems like we’re all kind of confused about what this means.

I saw the mention of personal coaches and I can only guess (and I tread lightly doing so) that maybe the ptb didn’t see enough of the results from the OCET teaching and that in some cases the riders in contention for team spots were more thrown off by David’s way than improved. Now that’s a guess. But guessing is all we’re getting with our non-transparent system.

Anyone closer to the situation have more of a handle on the non-Chef D’Equipe system coming into play?

Emily

[JER]

It’s just the next step in USEF’s David O’Connor Lifetime Employment Scbeme algorithm. You know, the sequence that goes --> FAIL WEG 2014 --> FAIL RIO 2016 --> retitle job to fool membership.

[merrygoround]

Back when Jack LeGoff was Team Coach, he was just that. He had a major program going, and the rider’s rode under him and learned.

Since then there has been a proliferation of UL riders who teach, more riders go to Europe to train or import trainers from there. In other words, today’s UL riders are no longer willing to work under A coach, they want to go their own way, with their own instructor.

David, Bruce,Ralph, Wash Bishop, Tad Coffin and many others benefitted from the old system, but times change.

[devvie]

I feel that the debate on him is very polarized where my opinion is pretty centrist: yes, those championships didn’t pan out, but I think that the rider/horse development aspect of his work has been solid, that riders have improved and improved results, and that overseas training opportunities have again, helped to develop horses and riders. And also I do think that the team at Rio was really just a few jumps away from success. And I’d swear the guy has some bad luck! I’ve seen it on the videos of him at championships Do I think he’s revolutionary? No, absolutely not, but I appreciate, from what I know of it, his intellectual and informed approach, and I do think he’s qualified for the job on many levels.

[JER]

[QUOTE=devvie;8967815]
And also I do think that the team at Rio was really just a few jumps away from success. [/QUOTE]

Never mind that those ‘just a few jumps’ means everything in eventing.

I can’t believe the excuses people make for failure. I think there’s some weird strain of USEF Stockholm Syndrome going around.

[vineyridge]

Until America can produce competitive dressage scores and finish XC, we are doomed to failure. Of course softening the XC for Games will give both opportunity and greater chance of failure–the latter because dressage and SJ will both be even more important.

We have almost 0 riders who can produce a dressage score near 46, much less 40.

[vineyridge]

Until America can produce competitive dressage scores and finish XC, we are doomed to failure. Of course softening the XC for Games will give both opportunity and greater chance of failure–the latter because dressage and SJ will both be even more important.

We have almost 0 riders who can produce a dressage score near 46, much less 40.

[devvie]

[QUOTE=JER;8967865]
Never mind that those ‘just a few jumps’ means everything in eventing.[/QUOTE]

Much like the Germans at WEG in Kentucky.

[Divine_Comedy]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8967873]

We have almost 0 riders who can produce a dressage score near 46, much less 40.[/QUOTE]

viney, this is just not true.

Also, let’s look at it by horse, not by rider. Regardless of popular opinion, the true way we should look at statistics for this sport is by performance of the horse, not the rider. Many riders can improve a horse drastically, but the majority of horses do have a limit to what they an score in dressage. The measure of a great rider is how much much they can improve a horse so that it is performing near the top of its ability consistently. Hence why top riders often move on a horse that is not scoring well to a young rider.

Looking at riders who can always score under 46 is asking a bit much because there are usually a horse or two in their string who just isn’t capable of that. That horse is not usually aiming at teams and may in fact be for sale. But that horse brings their average down.

So instead of looking just at riders, let’s look at pairs of horses and riders.

In 2016, for pairs that performed more three or more dressage tests at A/3*/4*, one American pair averaged under forty. That’s down from two pairs last year.

Nine pairs total (including the one in the thirties) averaged under the 45.0 mark. That’s down from fifteen from last year.

An additional eight pairs averaged between 45.0 and 46.0. You add on yet another six from 46.0 to 47.0.

Total averaging under fifty in three dressage tests or more from this past year is forty-nine pairs.

So contrary to zero pairs who can produce a score near 46.0, there are actually seventeen horse/rider pairs who average under that mark and close to fifty horse/rider pairs who can score near it.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Just my poor, personal and no reason to be highly regarded opinion, but I think the priority needs to be finishing a team cross country. DOC’s new job description seems to support the US sending individuals to WEG and Olympics - individuals wearing US colors, but each doing their own thing as needed to suit their owners and sponsors and individual aspirations - but not their country.

[vineyridge]

I just went to the FEI database and got all dressage scores under 50 for all North American 3s and Rolex and the OG. I got the American scores under 50 for the Boekelo and Aachen 3team events, all well as the Americans at all of the European 4*s.

The results ain’t pretty. If the dressage score is even competitive, XC isn’t. Or vice-versa.

I can post those numbers if anyone is interested.

[JP60]

@Devine Comedy

So instead of looking just at riders, let’s look at pairs of horses and riders.

In 2016, for pairs that performed more three or more dressage tests at A/3*/4*, one American pair averaged under forty. That’s down from two pairs last year.
Nine pairs total (including the one in the thirties) averaged under the 45.0 mark. That’s down from fifteen from last year.

Another way to look at it is you’ve cited a downward trend in rider pairs scores. It takes three points to make a trend, but given the lack of success of US riders in top events (overall), next year we may not see one pair under 40, and 3 under 45.

It’s all in the spin

The US seems happy to not create as much a team, as an amalgamate of professional riders. Riders who may place well individually, but do not seem to gel well as a Team. But then how can they. 3.5 years spent trying to make a living, managing many levels, types, and numbers of horses, plus maybe a farm and some training income. That last few months doing what they can to try and “make the team”, unless they already have a political side door (hmmmm), then after some crazy ass process to pick a team, they are thrown together barely 8 weeks out. The whole time spent as a “Team” they are either losing money or still having to manage so other aspect of their professional life.

That may be the way the rest of the world works as well, but it seems they seem to spend more time on the idea of teams working together than creating a stew at the last minute and hoping it tastes no bad.

(OT) The forum section seems quiet broken. I try to go to advanced reply, won’t bring up the page, try to edit, won’t bring up the page. Emotes? Don’t show. About all I got is post quick reply. I wonder if this is a plot by MB to reduce dissent from the rank and file :-o

[gardenie]

Vineyridge, yes, please post because I can’t figure out how you acquired that from the database.

[vineyridge]

It’s quite easy to do. You go to competitions/results for 2016-2017 (default), put in America for the continent and 3*/4* for level, senior riders for type. That will bring up a list of all such competitions that are scheduled for 2017, plus a tab for past events. Click on past events, and then look at all of them in North America for 2016. Then I did all of the 4*s but Adelaide separately because they are in Europe. Same for Boekelo and Aachen.

[vineyridge]

Dressage 40s-2016

Ocala CIC 3*
Super Socks 46.30
Downtown Harrison 45.10
BM and Steady Eddie 47.20
Vandiver 41.70
Clip Clop 49.60
Donner 44.40
BD and Carlevo 38.70
Arthur 41.70
FE Bowman 40.20
Lysander 48.00
Houdini 44.4o
My Mitch 48.50
Petite Flower 44.60
Ruben D’Ysieux 45.70

Fair Hill CCI 3*
RF Scandalous 41.50
RF Demeter 44.60
Under Suspicion 46.80
I’m Sew Ready 49.20
Landioso 48.70
Park Trader 49.40
Shame on the Moon 46.90
Charlie Tango 45.70
Carlevo 47.20
Powell 45.00
Z 49.70

Galway Downs CCI 3*
Carry On 48.8
Basco 45.2

Woodside, CA CIC3*
Prince William 48
Chatwin 41.8
Revitavet Capato 44.7
Eveready 47.3

Leesburg, VA CIC3*
Cooley Cross Border 46.7
Hans Dampf 47
Pfun 49.8
Pavarotti 48.7
Bentley’s Best 48.9

Unionville, PA CIC3*
Mr. Candyman 46.9
I’m Sew Ready 43.4
Celien 49.2
Hans Dampf 49
Powell 48.9

Hamilton, GA CIC3*
0

Ramona, CA CIC3*
Carry On 46.9
Charlie Tango 48.2

Richland, MI CIC3*
Tight Lines 45.7
Spring Easy 48.5
Gin & Juice 48.9
Military Mind 44.6

Rio Olympics
Sam 40.9
Piaf De B’neville 42
Mighty Nice 43.6
Paulank Brockagh 46.3
Santano II 37.6
Balmoral Sensation 46.5
Leonidas II 44
Don Geniro 42.4
Cooley Rorkes Drift 41.8
Riddle Master 49.4
Opgun Louvo 41.6
Chilli Morning 37
Qing Cu Briot Ene HN 41
Horseware Hale Bob 39.5
Blackfoot Mystery 47.7
Faerie Dianimo 49.5
Summon Up The Blood 47.3
The Duke of Cavan 47
Bayro 46
Barraduff 48.2
Billy The Biz 43.9
Entebbe De Hus 43.4
Ranco 49.3
Ceylor L A N 46.8
Duchess Desiree 48
Peter Parker 46.2
Reality 39 45.4
Euro Prince 47
Quicklook V 47.2
Tom Bombadill Too 46.8
Herta 47.9
CP Qualified 42.5
Ringwood Sky Boy 47
Veronica 47.3
Apollo VD Kurt Wendi Hoeve41.9
Samourai Du Thot 44.8
Fletcha Van’t Verahof 41.1
On Fire 46.7
Let It Be 49.4
Simon Porloe 46.8
Kurfurstin 48.9
Loughan Glen 46.6

Kalispell, MT CCI3*, CIC3*
CCI
Copper Beech 45.7
Under Suspicion 45.6
Cooley Dream 43.7
CIC
Landioso 44.4
Dempsey 49
Twizted Sister 49.8
Charlie Tango 45.9
Lagos Start 44.5

The Plains, VA CICO3*
Loughan Glen 36.3
RF Demeter 43.8
Wise Crack 49
Santino 47.2
Under Suspicion 49.8
Wecome Shadow 48.8
Fernhill Fugitive 47.2
Copper Beech 49.2
Donner 49.8
Mighty Nice 47.9
Veronica 43.7
Bentley’s Best 44.1
Fernhill Cublawn 47.4
Doesn’t Play Fair 41.4
Shame on the Moon 47.4
Cooley Dream 49.6
Fernhill Fearless 49.5

Ramona, CA CIC3*
Charlie Tango 44.7
Chatwin 42

Bromont CCI3*, CIC3*
CCI
The Apprentice 45.9
Pfun 48.8
Catalina 49

CIC
Cooley Dream 44.3
Pavarotti 49.3
Bentley’s Best 45.4

Allentown, NJ CCI3*, CIC3*
CCI
Powell 43.6
Welcome Shadow 46.3
Bentley’s Best 49.2
Indian Mill 46.3
Pavarotti 47.5
Dempsey 46.4
Cascani 44.3
Pfun 45
Quasar 48.5

0 in CIC3*

Rolex
Fischerrocana FST 34.4
Veronica 43.9
Doesn’t Play Fair 45.5
Mighty Nice 45
Fernhill Cubalawn 48.2
NZB Campino 43.2
Simply Priceless 49.8
Petite Flower 46.7
Manoir de Carneville 47.6
Shamwari 4 44.6
Fernhill Fugitive 43.1
Clifton Signature 47.5
Harbour Pilot 43.1
Copper Beech 48.5
Super Socks BCF 46.5
Revitavet Capato 49.2
Santino 46.8
Arthur 39.7
Houdini 48.3
Park Trader 49.6
RF Eloquence 49.6
RF Demeter 42.5
Bango 48.3
Ringwood Magister 46.9
Pavarotti 44.7
Fernhill By NIght 43

Elkton MD CIC3*

Powell 47.7
Hans Dampf 47.3

Fairburn, GA CIC3*

Bentley’s Best 45.4

Paso Robles, River Road CIC3*
0

Norwood, NC
Doesn’t Play Fair 41.8
Veronica 42.1
Covert Rights 45.1
Mighty Nice 42.7
Fernhill Cubalawn 44.9
Indian Mill 43.8
Meadowbrook’s Scarlett 48.6
Fernill Fearless 49.3
Foxwood High 48.2
Delux Z 48.2
Fernhill Fugitive 44.7
Pavarotti 39.2
Donner 46.7
Cooley On Show 49
Cascani 48.5
CatchAsCatchCan 49.8
Manoir de Carneville 44.7
Center Stage 49.8
Sound Prospect 46.7
Ballynoe Castle RM 47.5
Rf. Eloquence 41.8

Temecula CA CIC3*
Landioso 43.3

Hamilton GA CIC3*
Muggle 48.2
Houdini 37.1
Catchascatchcan 49.6
South Paw 48.6

Raeford NC CIC3*
Arthur 43.4
Doesn’t Play Fair 43.4
Donner 48.2
Indian Mill 47.5
Anthony Patch 46.7
Manoir de Carneville 48.5
Mr. Candyman 48.2
Copper Beech 49.9
Vandiver 49.2
Powell 44.1
Shamwari 4 48.3
Shame On The Moon 43.4
RF Eloquence 47.6
Sportfield Candy 48.8
Who’s A Star 48.2
Carlevo 44.3
Ballynoe Castle RM 47
The Apprentice 45.9
Bentley’s Best 45.6

Tallahassee FL CIC3*
Fernhill Fugitive 42.4
Catalina 44.4
Harbour Pilot 40.4
Foxwood HIgh 44.7
Wecome Shadow 44.7
RF Eloquence 46.2
Landmark’s Monte Carlo 46.3
Mr. Candyman 48.3
Who’s A Star 46.9
Super Socks BCF 48.5

Paso Robles, River Road CA CIC3*
0

Thomson GA CIC 3*, not OG qualified
Covert Rights 44.3
HHS Cooley 48.7
Celien 47
Pavarotti 49.3
Bentley’s Best 49.9

US Riders Abroad
Boekelo
Meadowbrook’s Scarlett 49.50
RF Eloquence 48.2

Aachen 18 Scores below 46
Harbour Pilot 45.6 (11th)
Landmark’s Monte Carlo 48.9 (25th)
Super Socks BCF 48.6 (30th)

Pau 4*
Crackerjack 47.7 (DNF)

Burghley 4* 13 scores beow 46, 8 scores below 40
Simply Priceless 46.8

Luhmuhlen 4*
No Americans

Badminton 4*
The Apprentice 45.7 (DNF)

[DrBeckett]

I’ve said it before and was pooh pooh’d because the competitions weren’t FEI so therefore it doesn’t count, but I think the U.S. has far too many dressage scores that are unbelievably low here in the U.S. Who can really produce a 27? Really? I don’t care that it’s an Advanced division not FEI. I’ve never seen a true 27. And I think this gives our riders a false sense of their abilities. They can’t even compare to European riders. We can’t even produce a win on our home territory. When was the last time an American won Rolex? Bring back the days of Jack LeGoff. If people don’t start working as a team, we will never have a competitive team.

[vineyridge]

A 27 at a US non-FEI competition is equal to 40.5 in an FEI competition. Not so unusual over there.

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=DrBeckett;8970078]
I’ve said it before and was pooh pooh’d because the competitions weren’t FEI so therefore it doesn’t count, but I think the U.S. has far too many dressage scores that are unbelievably low here in the U.S. Who can really produce a 27? Really? I don’t care that it’s an Advanced division not FEI. I’ve never seen a true 27. And I think this gives our riders a false sense of their abilities. They can’t even compare to European riders. We can’t even produce a win on our home territory. [/QUOTE]

I agree. The US riders competing at Great Meadow all did a practice run of the dressage test a couple days before, and their scores there were all significantly lower than what they got in the actual competition. :disillusionment:

[Divine_Comedy]

[QUOTE=JP60;8969915]
[/COLOR]
Another way to look at it is you’ve cited a downward trend in rider pairs scores. It takes three points to make a trend, but given the lack of success of US riders in top events (overall), next year we may not see one pair under 40, and 3 under 45.

It’s all in the spin [/QUOTE]

It’s not spin. Jesus Christ, these days everyone reads too much into the written word. I’m 100% stating facts. I didn’t even throw opinions into my post.

viney stated that our riders are not capable of putting in a dressage score of 46.0. I dispute that statement as false, and in fact viney’s post with all the results shows that there are in fact quite a few pairs hitting the mark of 46.0, even overseas.

You’re right, it’s a downward trend. I volunteered that information and gave no opinion about it. I simply provide information and facts if I see a statement that is baldly false based on data that I work with on a daily basis.

Are all of the horses putting in 46.0 horses I would put on teams? No. Not by a long shot. Many of them struggle in XC or SJ.

But viney stated our riders can’t hit 46.0. Not they can’t hit 46.0 and finish on it. Not they can’t hit 46.0 and also be strong on XC. If they had, I probably wouldn’t have had a problem with her first statement.

To say the riders in the US can’t hit 46.0 on the flat is patently untrue. Period. Qualify the statement if that’s what you mean.

And don’t read between the words for opinions. Facts are just facts. Or maybe not, in this ‘post-truth’ world.

[Winding_Down]

:applause: DC!