Of corn and cattle and linebreeding / inbreeding ...

[D_BaldStockings]

http://www.luingcattlesociety.co.uk/index.php?page=history

The Luing breed of cattle was developed on a 7 mile by 2 mile island off the coast of Scotland ( limited climate and acreage)
“In 1947 they selected some of the best first cross Shorthorn/Highland heifers that could be procured . These heifers were bred to the Shorthorn bull Cruggleton Alastair. Two sons of this breeding were kept and mated to their half sisters: Luing Mist in 1952 and Luing Oxo in 1953. From then on, by following up this in-breeding with line-breeding,”

So they began with F1 ‘hybrid’ dams, back-crossed to Shorthorn. (75% Shorthorn)
From that point on they bred-in within the pool of cattle. So ONE foundation bull.

Selection in a harsh climate on graze forage.
Fertility, calving ease, raising calf without help, sound legs, docile nature, adapted to the climate.

Resulting in a small population of genetically Inbred cattle that reliably reproduce these ‘production’ traits, and offer these production traits when crossbred with breeds with different production traits like frame size, higher rates of gain… .

If you want an interesting read on crossing breeds, look at sheep in the UK. Historically females from difficult climates were crossed with ‘lowland’ breeds to create a commercial female (males sold for meat), and those females bred to a ‘terminal cross’ sire strictly for fleshing/finishing quality and all resulting offspring sold.

This is a production model that requires recruiting the crossbred F1 female when your dams age out of the reproducing population and does not produce future generations of breeding females.
BUT is does produce highest performing commercial populations and revenue for the breeders at each level.

[D_BaldStockings]

The difficulty in selecting horses using these methods is the end goal: work performance through trained movement.

Not only does this mean half a decade or more time involved in judging the outcome of a single breeding; but there are multiple environmental factors of growing, feeding, exercising, shipping, training, riding; by many individuals that vary in their approach and ability…
…and it can all be brought to ruin by one bad bit of luck.

Secondarily, phenotype has less impact on end performance than many believe; and is itself varied by management decisions -including surgery.
How many TB racing prospects are sold on looks, speed trials and pedigree for millions, yet fail at the track for a multitude of reasons?
How many ‘supposedly’ outrun their pedigree based on performance of recent ancestors?
How many are limited by owner finances or ignorance to badly selected races or not having access to high performance and earning venues?

Breeding for ‘a future breeding animal’ by concentrating pedigree by linebreeding or inbreeding may get you a performance animal or may not. And may get you a breeding animal or not.

On the other hand, horses are not selected for fertility, foaling ease, even raising foals on their own. Depending on the traits of the mothers on both sides of the pedigree, you may get difficult foalings, difficult mares with low milk production or poor maternal ability, low fertility in stallions, foals that need special feed supplementation, farriery, surgery, dental work, on and on.

Breeding for ‘a future performance animal’ by picking on sire performance only may get you a performance animal or may not. And may get you a breeding animal or not.

Especially if you don’t know where the ability derives from in the sire? Nature? Nurture? A combination of genes from an outcrossed combination of backgrounds or a smaller, concentrated gene pool?

Breeding without knowing the background families is sort of rolling the dice and you are likely to get surprises.
Breeding without historic performance is a different situation than breeding with failed performance: horses that have no opportunity to show their genetics are unknowns, but that is better than horses with bad performance. Unless that bad performance is due to awful rearing and handling…

Another problem with horse breeding is that you need to be very long lived to see the results of several generations of selection; and the competitions that future generation will be entered in may change formats on much shorter notice.

There is no magic formula that always works to create a top performer or breeder; and hindsight is 20-20. Each breeder goes their own path with the mare base they have selected to breed on.

And the breeder is just the first step in the building of a performance animal.
A vital step, but easily de-railed by any of the steps that follow.

Genetics are really fun to discuss.
Less fun to actually work with.
Less important than ‘what comes next’ in many cases.

[D_BaldStockings]

Some of the ‘best performers’ may be difficult to house for various reasons: high drive animals are more likely to escape, more likely to learn bad habits because they are quick studies, often more likely to be overly sensitive and easier to ruin with bad training or punishment.

Most rogues are made, not born. Being overfaced can impact soundness or mental capacity for work, or trainability, though it has NO effect on genetic potential.

In short, it is very difficult to know what one has genetically, unless one has the truly outstanding performer - that one probably has the genetic potential and was well handled its’ entire life.
At least if it isn’t winning due to politics…

Things get complicated in a hurry.

[D_BaldStockings]

OP, your friend may find this an interesting read:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/haysconverter

'The cows are half the herd, but the Bull is ALL the herd"

• A.B ‘Bull’ Hancock, Thoroughbred breeder

[chestnutmarebeware]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8988582]
http://www.luingcattlesociety.co.uk/index.php?page=history

If you want an interesting read on crossing breeds, look at sheep in the UK. Historically females from difficult climates were crossed with ‘lowland’ breeds to create a commercial female (males sold for meat), and those females bred to a ‘terminal cross’ sire strictly for fleshing/finishing quality and all resulting offspring sold.

This is a production model that requires recruiting the crossbred F1 female when your dams age out of the reproducing population and does not produce future generations of breeding females.
BUT is does produce highest performing commercial populations and revenue for the breeders at each level.[/QUOTE]

Great point, from a huge sheep fan (I used to breed Jacobs)!

If you’ve never read about Robert Dishley and his sheep-breeding projects in the 19th century, it’s absolutely fascinating! There are several heritage breeds that he developed during that period that are still important today. (Although I’ve read articles from a few UK breeders that wish Robert had been interested in something besides sheep—chinchillas, maybe? :lol: Mostly because he took strictly localized regional breeds, intensely bred to specifically thrive in the original areas where they were first developed [landrace types], and combined them into more-widespread breeds that lost some of the special qualities that local farmers valued in order to create more commercially important "products for the national market.

At the other end of the spectrum of British sheep are primitive breeds like the Soay, North Ronaldsay and Boreray, which have been isolated on islands with no outcrossing for centuries. But the populations are very small, and they are not as commercially viable as other breeds.

I find this discussion overall to be absolutely fascinating!

[shall]

Thanks, MVP and Poltroon

Thanks for the excellent replies. Yes, it is still a roll of the dice as to what is produced. If you can look several generations back and see characteristics repeating, you feel better at doing the cross. I get excited at seeing generations of similiar looking horses in a pedigree that come from different lines. The result could be an excellent riding horse and breeding stock.

My mare is breeding stock. She has generations and siblings that look like her.

I’m still gambling with my first generation crosses, but it is less than it could be.

[QUOTE=mvp;8988368]
Theoretically, yes: Breeding similar phenotypes implies that underneath those physical appearances are similar combinations of genes or a similar genotype.

In fact, you guys should know that part of the power and limits of Mendel’s system of genes comes from inferring the units of inheritance underneath discreet physical traits… and then making up other concepts (a trait produced by mulitiple alleles or incomplete dominance) to account for traits that have a range of versions and not just single, “either/or” options. In other words, Mendel started with the assumption built into your point, shall.

So the problem with, say, two F1 crosses that look remarkably similar is that you can’t be sure that they are completely genetically similar… though it’s a good guess, particularly if you know a lot about which traits tend to be heritable. For most breeders, that means knowing many of the relatives of a given animal. That information tells you how “true breeding” a trait is.[/QUOTE]

[TrueColours]

The terrific information and data being put forward here is incredible. In some cases I read it and read it again after reading someone else’s post to determine the similarities and differences

I knew we would get some terrific responses - I didn’t know they would be this great. Thank you all so much again

Just sending my latest cut and paste for him to read this evening …

Thanks again - I am going to suggest he joins as well. He really has some terrific knowledge and great ideas and the offspring he is currently putting on the ground are first rate. He is now looking to advance his game, diversify a bit and with the strong mare base he has already, I think he can select some really nice WB stallions and offer something different to what is already available out there. If he follows through with this and breeds some of his Dutch Harness mares to really nice, complimentary WB stallions, I think the sire line will contribute the size, the bloodline credibility, the longer, more forward reach in the stride and more added components and variations that are currently missing.

[D_BaldStockings]

So long as he meets the current market demand (wherever and whenever he is) he should do all right.

Note that the market for ‘colored’ youngsters is generally stronger/more lucrative than for plain brown wrapper foals UNLESS there is strong pedigree both sides and connections to a real buyer pool within the market (hard to develop).

-And pretty faces sell; rugged but plain will not bring a good price as a foal, though it may be the better mature horse.

Non-WB mares without performance records can be a slow sell for their foals, which is why adding color OR buying back youngsters as they reach performance age and putting them in top programs may be the way to ‘prove’ his program. Not cheap, though.

Choosing specifically Dressage OR jumping (and knowing what great prospects have), then taking a hard look at shortcomings of the mares and matching sires to offset MAY work if the sires are close bred and his family also often shows the better trait (s) looked for.

Choosing a market where very young horses can ‘compete’ and actually have value added might be something to look into…

[poltroon]

The sheep article below is already getting a tiny bit dated, but it just floored me when I read it, to learn about this very aggressive use of genetic testing and embryo transfer in sheep - meat sheep no less - that it was not only possible to do these things but economically viable for a commercial enterprise:

http://www.sheepcrc.org.au/files/pages/information/sheep-crc-and-related-video-clips/JIVET_and_DNA_supercharge_sheep_breeding_at_Leahcim.pdf

Known as JIVET – juvenile in vitro embryo transfer – the program has already delivered stud lambs years in advance of those from his conventionally joined flock, thanks to a combination of old-school visual appraisal and traditional measurement techniques, with the latest in DNA testing and embryo collection methods.

Put simply, the program identifies superior breeding stock at a very early age (within weeks of birth); uses advanced embryo technology to collect eggs from ewe lambs at approximately six to eight weeks of age; joining then occurs in a test tube before the lambs are carried to term in surrogate mothers.

The Sheep CRC’s DNA tests have allowed him to identify “hard to measure” genetic traits such as meat eating quality or, in the case of his Poll Merino flock, identifying carriers of the horn gene.

“Understanding fat and muscle traits are also important because I want to transform the Merino to being an animal that can perform in every environment, as well as being more productive in terms of fleece weight, wool production and number of lambs weaned,” Mr Michael said.

"Things like intra-muscular fat and shear force are also traits we look for because if we can get our eating quality right then it’s icing on the cake.

I still don’t have a good handle on these genetic tests and how thorough they are in my own mind - is there really only a handful of testable genes that are controlling these fat and muscle traits??? - but obviously these people know way more about it than I do.

What’s amazing to me about this is that they are DNA testing lambs in their first week, then flushing them for eggs before the lambs are even weaned. Then, they’re crossing each of the eggs with a selection of different semen, so before these ewe lambs are even mature enough to breed naturally once, they have had multiple experimental cross lambs born.

And from the original 10 ewes selected for the first JIVET program, Leahcim now has 30 different genetic crosses available for future selection, all within the space of 12 months – a feat which would have taken another three years to achieve using conventional breeding.

This all leaves me wondering what tests are on the horizon for horses, not just for our diseases, but for specific performance traits. Some, like gaitedness, might well be easy to isolate. Others, like jumping ability… well good luck! And when we have them, what will happen next?

[D_BaldStockings]

Staying within the breed might actually be a better market niche

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2014/01/20/lianca-harness-horse-gone-grand-prix

google
high roller dutch harness horse youtube

Comes up with a nice youngster.

[D_BaldStockings]

isolating genes for physical performance in movement may be much more difficult to sort than ‘meat shear factor’ since so many ‘training events’ can impact a jumper performance.

The old: "one jump doesn’t make a course a certainty’.

There have been amazing strides made in meat and dairy animal performance genetic markers, but horse studies are lacking to say the least.

If one give a 4-H kid a well bred young meat animal and a good step by step plan to follow, they can do quite well with it.
Growing is easier than training by an exponential long shot.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;8988846]

Thanks again - I am going to suggest he joins as well. He really has some terrific knowledge and great ideas and the offspring he is currently putting on the ground are first rate. He is now looking to advance his game, diversify a bit and with the strong mare base he has already, I think he can select some really nice WB stallions and offer something different to what is already available out there. If he follows through with this and breeds some of his Dutch Harness mares to really nice, complimentary WB stallions, I think the sire line will contribute the size, the bloodline credibility, the longer, more forward reach in the stride and more added components and variations that are currently missing.[/QUOTE]

On your friend’s particular cross and that good-sounding recipe for a Dutch Harness horse combined with a WB. It’s hard to tell if a WB stallion would improve the forward reach of the Harness Horse’s strides. (And do you mean in the front end, or behind? With respect to Arabians and NSH, I want the same thing.) The hard part is to figure out what heritable trait (usually the lengths and angles of bone) create a particular way of using a limb. But you have musculature and even ennervation contributing as well.

And for selectively-bred driving horses, I’d wonder if their “up and down” hock action plus the “high knees” rather than “swinging from the shoulder” movement would be dominant in the out-cross with a WB. In other words, someone worked hard to breed the driving horse’s particular way of going into him. It might be a hard-to-breed-back-out feature. It’s hard to say without lots and lots of data one the relative “prepotence” of WBs for their movement vs. Harness horses for theirs.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8988875]
So long as he meets the current market demand (wherever and whenever he is) he should do all right.

Note that the market for ‘colored’ youngsters is generally stronger/more lucrative than for plain brown wrapper foals UNLESS there is strong pedigree both sides and connections to a real buyer pool within the market (hard to develop).

-And pretty faces sell; rugged but plain will not bring a good price as a foal, though it may be the better mature horse.

Non-WB mares without performance records can be a slow sell for their foals, which is why adding color OR buying back youngsters as they reach performance age and putting them in top programs may be the way to ‘prove’ his program. Not cheap, though.

Choosing specifically Dressage OR jumping (and knowing what great prospects have), then taking a hard look at shortcomings of the mares and matching sires to offset MAY work if the sires are close bred and his family also often shows the better trait (s) looked for.

Choosing a market where very young horses can ‘compete’ and actually have value added might be something to look into…[/QUOTE]

And it would be good if the OP’s friend were 15 and not 50 when he began this breeding program, lol. With long-generation-ed animals, it takes a heckuva long time.

[stoicfish]

As has been pointed out, it is difficult to select for certain traits when it comes to performance…beyond performance.
Corn is very easy to quantify the desirable traits. Pick the color or shrunk or plump or mass and select for those traits.
But in horses it is much harder to pick certain genes to condense or eliminate. Do horses have a jump gene or is it a multifactorial trait that can have several combinations that work? Quick reactions, body type, muscle attachment, mind, braveness. If you miss one, you don’t have the horse you need.
So to try and line breed heavily may not give you the right traits that made up the original success. By trying to condense some of the traits, you will also leave out others, since you don’t actually know what traits are passed on till you test the offspring. Then add training as an issue that clouds the success of your selection process.
In other words, till you can identify all the traits that are desirable, you are doing this blind in terms of selection. Multi layers of line breeding may only compound the issues instead of the desirable traits.
It would work better if you are selecting for simple and understood traits that are obvious or can be tested for.

[TrueColours]

^^^ Agree 100%!

By the time the individual is 3-4-5 years old and you start to get some sort of idea of the talent it naturally and genetically possesses (or doesn’t!) you have got 4-5-6 years or longer into that line breeding “guesstimate” so to say “Oops! Guess this little experiment was a dismal failure! I need to start again down another genetic path …” you have sunk so much time, money and effort into a failed and flawed venture, whereas I am assuming with corn, you are going to see the results - good and bad - far sooner and with less effort and cost expended to see if you are heading down the right path or not …

[chestnutmarebeware]

Well, if nothing else, this thread truly illustrates how difficult it is to consistently breed nice horses that succeed in their intended sport! Everyone who takes on this job with love and commitment has my complete respect!

[TrueColours]

This young mare that I own and is hopefully sold now, is part of the breeding program of the breeder I referred to in my thread.

She is by the DHH stallion Gilandro out of a full Hackney mare who looks to me to be built more like a WB and has a flatter way of moving than most typical Hackney’s do.

My mare moves with a lot of natural forward movement with a lot of push from behind and overall suspension. She would be one I would love to see, down the road, being bred to a really nice WB stallion …

Here are a few pictures of her:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15541590_1463807600315829_3645005392828874042_n.jpg?oh=d65286cba2bb3b74762c2ad2c5038e02&oe=58F01A86

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15401109_1463807516982504_5954705616973856435_n.jpg?oh=7320832384071048c9abc1785f4ef6f2&oe=58EBB46A

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15492178_1463807570315832_4713585280694296850_n.jpg?oh=9b20ee7f50afbfaa10dbeb5ec37bc582&oe=592083A1

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15578899_1463807673649155_869342297803782261_n.jpg?oh=ee19a95003a4b44093544f5e8597e735&oe=58E3F16A

and a video clip of her …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0vYxxXUxs

There is so much to like about this breed, IMO, for dressage or driving horses. I think someone could have a lot of fun and success incorporating them into their breeding program by selecting the right WB stallion for them …

[wronglead]

What an interesting read. I have been interested in line breeding since I fell in love with the jumper stallion Libero H. He was a total freak of a jumper and the story about his breeder/breeding is remarkable.

QUOTE FROM AN OLD COTH THREAD (capricorn):
“The genetics of Libero H are very interesting. There was an article about him in the Aug-Oct 1994 issue of the AHHA newsletter that was so fascinating that I never forgot it. His breeder, Martin Ropcke, was a businessman and a mathmetician. A friend who was a devotee of Holsteiners convinced him to breed Holsteiner jumpers. They researched pedigrees of successful jumpers and kept finding the foundation sire Achill 1265 in the pedegrees. Achill 1265 was an intensely inbred horse. His sire and dam both had the same sire, Achill 582. Achill 582 was the product of the mating of a full brother and sister. Martin Ropcke wanted to try to concentrate the genes of Achill 1265 so he started buying mares with him in their pedigree and bred them to stallions with him in their pedigree. Libero H’s dam had Achill 1265 in her sire and dam line and his sire, Landgraf has him in his dam line. Libero H is inbred to Achill 1265 41 times.
Libero didn’t do well in his 100 day test and was not initially approved by the Holsteiner Verband, but his breeder never lost faith in him. He was bred to a few mares and produced Libera, an internationally successful showjumper in his first foal crop. Libero H was later approved by the Holsteiner Verband on the basis of his brilliant showjumping career. Unfortunately, Martin Ropcke didn’t live to see his faith vindicated. He died when Libero H was 4.
I would think that Libero H would be a very prepotent sire with that linebreeding.”

Another interesting article that has a snippet on him as well as Achill in other horses: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/05/line-breeding-a-crucial-tool-for-the-breeder/