Of corn and cattle and linebreeding / inbreeding ...

I am involved in a very interesting discussion with a fellow breeder who is Mennonite and I am impressed with the arguments and rationale he is putting forward on his breeding principles and the direction he is taking his program through multiple generations. He is looking to possibly breed his mares “outside of the box” and I have made some suggestions to him. He sent me this link:

http://www.luingcattle.com/why-we-line-breed

And further explained his thoughts in these comments …

“Yes I agree exactly with what you are saying, but in my opinion breeding goes much deeper then just cross a good sire with a good dam and hope to get a good or better product. In my understanding for cross breeding then you need to use a very inbred or line bred sire to a specific target like good dressage talent or temperament or suspension, any characteristic you want and the dam then pick other talents also inbred or line bred. When you breed these 2 together to create an outcross you will get the maximum hybrid vigor possible, better than their parents. This would be the kind of product I would like to raise for competing clients but the problem with these is they would not pass it on to their offspring unless you would line breed again to something that makes a connection. In my opinion XXXX is just that an outcross with super athletic ability I think he will be a much better performance horse than breeding stock. But he would be a good prospect for further linebreeding to good things in his pedigree. To use him on my mares where there is no connection at all would be pretty risky to hope to get the same talent as he has I think. Here is a link that maybe explains my theory a bit better. I am curious on your opinions on this so don’t be afraid to argue with me. Just feel free to be open about it. Specifically the part about the corn really explains what I would want to try if I do some cross breeding with my mares.”

He makes a lot of sense. I think first and foremost - as a breeder - you need to decide if you are breeding for the show ring or the future breeding shed because they wont necessarily be the same goals. I dont believe the average rider or trainer will care if that lovely prospect in front of them is linebred, inbred or outcrossed. They either like it and buy it because it suits their competitive goals or they dont.

So … after reading this article, do you agree or disagree and are you breeding for the show ring or the breeding shed, and do you believe that as a breeder - you can accomplish both goals with the same animal or they need to follow 2 completely different and separate paths?

I’ll share the comments with him. I know he’d love to hear the varied opinions that Im sure will be put forward by everyone … :slight_smile:

Some of the things in the article I found a bit confusing. I copied one statement below. In the first line he says that two different corn strains are inbred to eliminate hybrid vigor but how is this inbreeding if he’s talking about different strains?

“In the case of corn the plant breeder line-breeds (or inbreeds) two different corn strains to concentrate the characteristics of each and to eliminate the hybrid vigor. Once this has been achieved he breeds these two inbred plants and the resulting progeny benefits from the maximum hybrid vigor.”

I don’t think I entirely agree with what he is saying. Look at what happened with American Pharoah and California Chrime. They outran their pedigrees and were clearly better than their respective parents. How would he explain that?

Corn doesn’t have heart. Heart is what sets any great athlete apart from his peers, many of whom may be more talented physically.

1 Like

I’ve never bred a horse, so I can’t speak to that specifically, but the concept he’s explaining is fairly common in other species bred for very specific inheritable traits (e.g. show dogs, sheep, singing canaries, etc.). It works, but you have to know what you are doing, especially in regard to recessive characteristics that may show up as an unpleasant surprise. GREAT record-keeping over multiple generations is a must.

1 Like

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8988148]
Some of the things in the article I found a bit confusing. I copied one statement below. In the first line he says that two different corn strains are inbred to eliminate hybrid vigor but how is this inbreeding if he’s talking about different strains?

“In the case of corn the plant breeder line-breeds (or inbreeds) two different corn strains to concentrate the characteristics of each and to eliminate the hybrid vigor. Once this has been achieved he breeds these two inbred plants and the resulting progeny benefits from the maximum hybrid vigor.”[/QUOTE]

I think I know what he means. I’ve had these discussions with my trainer, who is a real student of genetics/breeding.

Think about horses - if you line breed the dam side for one set of characteristics and line breed the stud side for another set of characteristics, breeding them for several generations.

When that mare and stallion are crossed, you are breeding two different line bred horses - the resulting outcross of the line breds results in a strong cross.

One of my mares was out of line bred mare, out crossed to a completely different stallion line. She was better than both parents. She was also a little nuts, but was likely as much nurture as nature. Her breeder has a history of spoiling & ruining mares.

On the other hand, I had a pure bred dog that came from line breed CKC/AKC Champions. The actual breeding was an outcross and I ended up with the milkman’s kid, put together by committee. I loved her just the same but when outcrossing, what you get is much less predictable than when line breeding.

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;8988205]
I’ve never bred a horse, so I can’t speak to that specifically, but the concept he’s explaining is fairly common in other species bred for very specific inheritable traits (e.g. show dogs, sheep, singing canaries, etc.). It works, but you have to know what you are doing, especially in regard to recessive characteristics that may show up as an unpleasant surprise. GREAT record-keeping over multiple generations is a must.[/QUOTE]

True.

The ideas he is talking about, including the discussion of hybrid corn as a success story date back to the 1920s or so. The basic idea “works,” but 1) it’s expensive and slow (plus takes an incredible number of individuals bred and data recording)’ and 2) I’d explain how and why a system of inbreeding and outcrossing works differently than did the OP and the article. (I know some of this stuff in a scholarly way-- used to be a historian of science and this era of evolutionary biology/theoretical population genetics is what I studied.) Also, I want find a WB/Arabian cross and the biology plus economics of this is kicking my personal ass as the first generation of an outcross is a wildly variable thing!

So 2) first: How to conceptualize what line-breeding or out-crossing does, in Mendelian terms. Genes are nothing but positions on chromosomes and alleles are versions of genes. You inherit one allele from the male and one from the female parent. In the best and simplest scenario, one round of selective breeding works this way: If you have an allele that, by itself, produces a visible characteristic that you want, you “select” this individual for subsequent breedings; you do not breed the animals lacking this trait and, you infer, that allele.

In subsequent rounds of selective breeding, your cross animals who have that trait until the population is true-breeding for that trait. What that means in genetic terms is that every individual has that one allele corresponding with the trait you want. Thinking of one allele, this is the goal of inbreeding: To eliminate all other alleles such that you know the heritable trait you want will arrive in all offspring.

The “hybrid vigor” idea described here (one that goes back to at least Darwin and was understood in pre-Mendelian terms) is confusing. Leaving aside the common meaning (out-crossing so as to produce healthy individuals), it’s better to think of “hybrid vigor” for the purposes of creating a “breeding system” (the general plan for rounds of in-breeding, selection and out-crossing, then more in-breeding) in a different way. What I think breeders really hope to gain in that “F1” (“First Filial”) generation of crossing between two individuals from inbred and selected lines is to produce in an individual one that assuredly has the alleles you want; the ones that were “stabilized,” or bred into every individual in the respective populations containing the male and female parents.

This doesn’t always happen, but it is the purpose and hope of each out-crossing.

The theory continues that once you find an individual in that F1 group that has the combination of traits you want, you breed them within a population that has other traits you want. That could be going back to one of the parental populations, or founding a new line.

In this way, so breeders have long understood (before and after Mendel, I might add) this pattern of in-breeding, selection, cross-breeding and more selection, then in-breeding again modifies a population in a given direction over time.

Awesome… except that the biology is much more complicated. Alleles can have more than two options. Traits we were correlating with “one allele” may have more complicated genetic causes. (Worse, they can have epigenetic (developmental) or even “nuture” causes that we don’t appreciate quite yet). Also, it sucks that alleles come on chromosomes and whole chromosomes and/or whole sections of them are inherited as a package deal. This point is important: When we preserve one allele corresponding with a trait we want, we are also accepting a whole bunch of other alleles. E.g. (assuming that coat color and mane/tail hair have simple genetic causes) and those genes are close together on one chromosome: When you selected for a delightfully loud color pattern in your Appy, you get the allele for “shitty mane and tale”, too, because it sits next door on the same chromosome.

The reason, then, that in-breeding creates bad, heritable conditions that we’d like to correct is because we have been practicing “inadvertant selection” for alleles on sections of chromosomes that came along for the ride while we were selecting for their great neighbors. For a while, perhaps not all of these were expressed (and now we have to think about “dominance”-- the extent to which one version of an allele manifests its trait over another or incompletely). But if the “inadvertant selection continues” you can have deleterious versions of those alleles show up such that the individuals manifest traits we didn’t want.

So “hybrid vigor” in this second sense is what that out-crossing generates: The possibility that some of those deleterious alleles will be replaced by better ones. But you can see that out-crossing does the same thing as when we are talking about introducing a desired trait that’s true breeding in another line: It introduces a new allele to the inbred group.

  1. The reason this worked remarkably well for corn breeding was that plant breeding is cheap and fast in comparison to animals: Each generation is much shorter and you can produce many, many more individuals per generation for less money than you can with animals.

Well before Darwin theorized jack-diddly about selective breeding, or Gregor Mendel suggested a useful way to conceptualize the underlying units of inheritance and the way they get shared or moved around via inbreeding or outcrossing, animal breeders knew that it could a take one careful stockman’s career (and a more or less constant breeding ideal) in order to modify his herd in a reliable way.

And so to the Mennonite’s proposed “breeding system” and “breeding for the shed or the show ring.” As far as I can tell, what the cattleman in the article wanted to do was to create a true-breeding line of female animals. That in itself is a huge project. And really, he is just trying to refine a single population that, presumably, someone else would want to out-cross. For one livestock breeder to create two, true-breeding populations such that he could eventually make that F-1 cross and, hopefully, get a spectacular individual from that would take a huge amount of time and money. (And to be clear, every time this out-crossed to bring new traits into his “female line”-based true-breeding population he has, he’s creating an F-1 cross.) So inbreeding and outcrossing happen by degrees.

So the difference between breeding for the show ring or the shed needs refinement: I read this difference as one between “breeding for a spectacular individual and assuming that his phenotype corresponds well to his genotype and selecting him to breed next.” “Breeding for the shed,” in contrast means “sure, looking for phenotype in that individual, but also looking at her ancestors and her genetics so that I can estimate which alleles she carries with her.” In other words, “breeding for the shed” means overlooking appearances a bit and paying more attention to the pedigree behind those traits.

Kudos if you have read all this and follow it. I’m sure there are crucial pieces I have left out (e.g. the whole “dominance” issue). I hope this helps make sense of what the cattle and corn breeders are talking about. IMO, the genetics of animals and the traits we want are so complicated that this doesn’t work well for producing biologically complex traits.

Oh, and for that F1 out-cross, both red mare’s scenario and Where’smywhite can occur: You get the best of the sire- and dam’s pedigree, or you get an unpredictable combination.

Those of you who wish to test your knowledge: What factors of the parental populations and that F1 cross tell you whether you’d get “the best of both sides” or “put together by committee”?

Oh, and for that F1 out-cross, both red mare’s scenario and Where’smywhite can occur: You get the best of the sire- and dam’s pedigree, or you get an unpredictable combination.

Those of you who wish to test your knowledge: What factors of the parental populations and that F1 cross tell you whether you’d get “the best of both sides” or “put together by committee”?

And a bit of refinement about why corn breeders had so much success: When those guys created that “hopeful, best of each parental line… in several traits” F1 cross, they could produce thousands of candidate plants… not one foal or one calf. The plant breeders could then select among those individuals in order to breed the one plant that happened to have not just the one allele they wanted, but two- or several of them. If you were to do the same “one foal at a time,” you can see a couple of problems: either you’d need to rebreed the mare and stallion over and over until you happened to get the combination of alleles you wanted, or you’d have to breed the foal back to one of the populations… and hope that the F2 descendent of that cross had the combination of alleles you wanted. And if that didn’t work, go for F3, and so on.

In other words, selecting for one allele in each generation is hopelessly slow. Selecting for several of them complicates matters immensely in terms of “fixing” that allele in the group (making sure every individual only inherits that allele) for any one allele.

Horses with the same phenotype?

Horses bred to perpetuate the same phenotype would breed more consistently, despite from different lines, correct?

I bred a leggy, elegant Arabian mare with a super brain to a similiarly built, dressage type warmblood stallion and the result is a good minded athlete. Both parents were a nice type, and the sire was known to stamp and cross well with Arabians.

[QUOTE=mvp;8988312]
Oh, and for that F1 out-cross, both red mare’s scenario and Where’smywhite can occur: You get the best of the sire- and dam’s pedigree, or you get an unpredictable combination.

Those of you who wish to test your knowledge: What factors of the parental populations and that F1 cross tell you whether you’d get “the best of both sides” or “put together by committee”?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8988295]
On the other hand, I had a pure bred dog that came from line breed CKC/AKC Champions. The actual breeding was an outcross and I ended up with the milkman’s kid, put together by committee. I loved her just the same but when outcrossing, what you get is much less predictable than when line breeding.[/QUOTE]

There’s also something called (I believe) the Founder’s Principle, which comes from the biogeography field. It states that the smaller the isolated population (i.e. linebreeding), the more likely a larger percentage of the population will become homozygous for recessive genes only represented as a small minority in larger populations with more outcrossing. These recessive traits may or may not be advantageous to the population, but either way it results in a change in both the genotype and phenotype of the isolated population.

[QUOTE=shall;8988339]
Horses bred to perpetuate the same phenotype would breed more consistently, despite from different lines, correct?

I bred a leggy, elegant Arabian mare with a super brain to a similiarly built, dressage type warmblood stallion and the result is a good minded athlete. Both parents were a nice type, and the sire was known to stamp and cross well with Arabians.[/QUOTE]

Theoretically, yes: Breeding similar phenotypes implies that underneath those physical appearances are similar combinations of genes or a similar genotype.

In fact, you guys should know that part of the power and limits of Mendel’s system of genes comes from inferring the units of inheritance underneath discreet physical traits… and then making up other concepts (a trait produced by mulitiple alleles or incomplete dominance) to account for traits that have a range of versions and not just single, “either/or” options. In other words, Mendel started with the assumption built into your point, shall.

So the problem with, say, two F1 crosses that look remarkably similar is that you can’t be sure that they are completely genetically similar… though it’s a good guess, particularly if you know a lot about which traits tend to be heritable. For most breeders, that means knowing many of the relatives of a given animal. That information tells you how “true breeding” a trait is.

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;8988366]
There’s also something called (I believe) the Founder’s Principle, which comes from the biogeography field. It states that the smaller the isolated population (i.e. linebreeding), the more likely a larger percentage of the population will become homozygous for recessive genes only represented as a small minority in larger populations with more outcrossing. These recessive traits may or may not be advantageous to the population, but either way it results in a change in both the genotype and phenotype of the isolated population.[/QUOTE]

True. And it’s not the Founder’s Principle, just Founder Principle. There are several ways to state it: The term refers to the fact that the particular individuals who founded the population also donated whatever alleles they have to the group. (Duh… how could they do otherwise?). Those individuals, therefore, have a greater effect on the subsequence set of alleles in the population when it is small. They also have a greater effect (due to inbreeding among relatives) than does, say, the one new animal who enters the population from the outside. That’s because he has only been crossing with a few individuals for a short period of time… any new alleles he has can only spread slow in the population over time and subesquent breeding by his descendents with individuals of the original group.

So the very big deal to understand about the size and breeding history of a population is the amount of genetic variability that the collective set of its members might have.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8988157]
I don’t think I entirely agree with what he is saying. Look at what happened with American Pharoah and California Chrime. They outran their pedigrees and were clearly better than their respective parents. How would he explain that?[/QUOTE]

These ideas both bring up related questions for the breeder.

  1. To what extent is any feature heritable in the first place? Is “heart” an identifiable phenotypic trait for which one can select as for eye color? Sorting out a trait causes like heritability or not (nature or nurture) is one problem and sorting out the various genetic or developmental (“epigenetic”) causes of a trait with biologically complex causes is another.

  2. Animals that look or perform differently than their pedigree suggests means (at least to me) that either

A) there’s a lot of latent variability in each of the parents. That is to say, Baby inherited some alleles we didn’t know about in looking at the parents;

or B) We don’t really know how to select perfectly for the trait we want— something like heart or speed.

Sometimes, these problems “we suck at selecting” and “boy-howdy a trait we think of as discreet and heritable has complex biological causes” are the same one, just stated in different terms. What we are really saying is that in selective breeding, we are trying to find and isolate the cause of one genotype (and I’ll allow that that can be many alleles) that correspond to one identifiable trait we want, and then to breed only among individuals who have that so that, some number of generations in the future, every descendent has it.

mvp wrote a great piece.

The world is changing. In a world where we have more genetic tests and more ability to actually know what individuals have, our information about our individuals will change and what we want to produce will change.

“Hybrid vigor” is basically a way of shaking the dice harder. If you have a stable, true-breeding population that all have homozygous alleles at important traits, you won’t get low quality babies. But you won’t get better ones either. An outcross is basically a way to create randomness that can be selected into a new line of true-breeding homozygous individuals better than the ones you already have.

Some loci, however, are naughty and inconvenient, in that the best possible combination is in fact heterozygous. Palomino would be one of the most obvious examples. If you want to always breed palomino foals, your optimal breeding population is not your show population - it’s (say) chestnut mares and a cremello stallion, neither of which are showable in your Palomino club. Or, you can have all Palomino breeding stock and accept that only half your foals will be Palomino.

Palomino is at least easy to detect in parents and offspring. :slight_smile: The traits we want as performance horse breeders are not so easy.

[QUOTE=poltroon;8988443]
mvp wrote a great piece.

The world is changing. In a world where we have more genetic tests and more ability to actually know what individuals have, our information about our individuals will change and what we want to produce will change.

“Hybrid vigor” is basically a way of shaking the dice harder. If you have a stable, true-breeding population that all have homozygous alleles at important traits, you won’t get low quality babies. But you won’t get better ones either. An outcross is basically a way to create randomness that can be selected into a new line of true-breeding homozygous individuals better than the ones you already have.

Some loci, however, are naughty and inconvenient, in that the best possible combination is in fact heterozygous. Palomino would be one of the most obvious examples. If you want to always breed palomino foals, your optimal breeding population is not your show population - it’s (say) chestnut mares and a cremello stallion, neither of which are showable in your Palomino club. Or, you can have all Palomino breeding stock and accept that only half your foals will be Palomino.

Palomino is at least easy to detect in parents and offspring. :slight_smile: The traits we want as performance horse breeders are not so easy.[/QUOTE]

To continue the Mendelian lecture:

Poltroon’s choice of coat color for discussion is not accidental, nor is it uncommon. That’s because it’s the ideal trait for Gregor Mendel’s whole method of inferring units of inheritance. Not only is the trait discreet (or “discontinuous” as opposed to height which is a "continuously varying feature), but coat color (like eye color and seat coat texture in peas) has a pretty simple genetic basis.

If you were to read the textbooks used in animal breeding courses at ag schools in the US between about 1930 and 1930 or so, you’d see discussions of coat color, texture and features like polled vs. horned cattle as harbingers of the power of Mendelian genetics applied to the age-old problem of selective breeding.

By then, of course, plant and animal breeders-- and particularly dairy cow breeders, plus beef cattle breeders-- had an enormous amount of knowledge and data behind them. They already wanted to select for complex traits like “mothering ability,” “ease of calving,” “speed of weight gain or maturation,” milk fat, total milk yield and the rest. The great hope was (and still is) that these complicated, so-called “commercial traits” can one day be understood in genetic terms and be selected for just as we currently (then, in the early 20th century) could do for simple stuff like horns and coat color.

Oh, and those female traits, as was discussed in the article complicate things. The problem is that one typically pays great attention to the male relatives in a pedigree (because each can produce far more offspring in his lifetime than can a female mammal… so it makes economic sense to study him, not her). But the trait you want to isolate in a bull will be expressed in his daughters. So even one round of test-breeding for a bull involves two generations, and enough breedings that you get a daughter from him-- just to see if he confers the trait. And then, if you want to know if that will be true-breeding for the bull, you need to see what the daughter’s offspring do. You need to see his grand-daughters (mature enough to give milk) before you know if the trait in her came from that bull or from the matrilinial side of the grand-daughter.

Thank you so much for the brilliant responses! :slight_smile: Ive been sending them along and got this back in return …

[QUOTE][/Wow I like this!!! very interesting, QUOTE]

There is so much to think about here and how it can / cannot apply to one’s particular breeding programs …

Thank you all again :slight_smile:

This is very interesting to me too. I’m not a breeder but I do have a TB gelding who is closely linebred.

The damsire was bred back to his dam. I’ll include a link to the pedigree so you can see what I mean. I always wondered if this was an accidental breeding if they were trying to retain a quality from the dam. I’ve never seen such a close line breeding before.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/priceless+jewel5

  1. Corn can be self pollinated, horses cannot. Generations of self pollination combined with selection will result in homozygosity AND a lack of variation in the resulting 10th or more generation ( you will have only chestnut horses if you only select for chestnut and discard anything that produces or is other than chestnut see the Suffolk Punch breed.)
  2. This process is the beginning of creating pure lines. Distinct Pure lines are essential to developing parents of F1 hybrid ‘production’ corn. You must retain the parental lines and make the same F1 cross each time you want the same production hybrid outcome.
  3. This will ONLY work if phenotype is dependent on genotype: you do not select corn from an ideal growing situation over corn from a drought situation, all external factors need to be identical as possible. MANY pure line parental crosses are possible and seed companies select only those displaying the most hybrid vigor and desirable traits. Some pure line F1 crosses are duds so are not repeated.

http://theagricos.com/plant-breeding/pure-line-selection/pure-line-theory/

Contrasted with Open Pollinated corn (parents are random, but within the same field and seed is selected by phenotype at harvest), there is much more variation in the offspring of Open Pollinated.

This would be similar to the case of horses within a closed breed; this is analagous to Open pollination.