Off breed prospect - what would you choose?

Many decades ago I read something that Bazy Tankersly (owner of Al Marah Arabians) wrote.

She did NOT breed for flat croups as she thought that the flat croups were bad for horses that were supposed to be able to do dressage, among other things.

The last two decades or so the two Arabians I saw whose croups were flat also had the back bone swooping up, a good bit, to their flat, level croup.

There are some exceptions. If I remember correctly the Davenport Arabian stallion Prince Hal (Kuhaylan Haifi stallioni) had a flattish level croup and a strong, level back.

However one reason I go so into the pure Davenports are the ones that have what I call a “peaked croup” (not a jumper’s bump) with strongly muscled wide loins right in front of their croup which was flat, not level, sloping gently down to the highly set tail bone (along with BROAD knees and hocks, long sloping shoulders, usually a deep heat girth and good depth further back, plus the chiselled head, mitbah, and pretty ears.)

Charles Craver had a photograph of the Pure Davenport Kuhaylan Kurush stallion Tybalt doing a piaffe. I think he wrote that a dressage rider he knew had gotten into riding Tybalt.

This mania with a flat, level croup is one reason that I have come to the conclusion that ARTISTS, overwhelmed by the sheer beauty of the Arabians they saw, exaggerated some features, often to make a more beautiful and exotic picture. Lady Wentworth–if one looks closely at the pictures in her books one can see the brush strokes on the mitbah, head and croup, just to make the horse look more “ideal” as an model for paintings. Gladys Brown Edwards paintings made each horse, no matter what the photos show, look very similar to her drawing of an “ideal” Arabian used as a breed standard when I was young. This has breed standard with its ideals has been an unmitigated disaster for the breed IMHO. SOME desert horses had flat level croups, SOME desert horses had extremely beautiful heads, SOME desert horses had long necks, SOME desert horses had decent legs (at least before they lived in shackles), many had dryness and ears, BUT as a norm no desert Arabian horse ever had EVERY Arabian characteristic now considered necessary and no desert Arabian was “perfect”, they were horses after all, not angels.

You have to be picky, but there are probably more dressage suitable Arabians out there than you think. Unfortunately they are often subject to bad early training (like for halter), the English ones are often saddle trained for Saddle Seat classes, and many tend to have really sensitive mouths and absolutely no problems with going WAY behind vertical. Plus they can often process things quicker than normal horses. I always had to think ahead handling mine, luckily they had good dispositions and seemed to considered me as an amiable, harmless klutz (accurate) and forgave me my many mistakes.

If I got into dressage I’d look around, and I have no doubt that I would end up with an Arabian who would never have any hope of winning a ribbon in a halter class. I would be ecstatically happy if that imagined horse was a pure Davenport Arabian.

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@LilyandBaron - update? Have you put shopping on hold, or did you find something?

I am curious, but also - I wanted to take this opportunity to show off new pics of my Saddlebred (who is in training, showing, and as of today 39 days in foal to a Hanoverian stallion). :grin:

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She is STUNNING!! Who is she in foal to?! I love the matchy matchy too


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Thx @beowulf ! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

She is in foal to Finest (Furstenball x Wie Weltmeyer). https://www.superiorequinesires.com/finest/

This was my first foray into breeding with frozen to a European stallion and it went incredibly well - I am excited for this new option with a young, fertile mare. Oh the babies she will make!!! :heart_eyes:

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Congratulations, your mare is lovely! I hope you will keep us updated on the breeding!

I would never have believed that was a saddlebred! She looks so sporty! I don’t mean this in a bad way, I do love the flash of a 5 gaited ASB! But their long necks and faces are generally quite distinctive.

That should be an exciting foal.

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Loads of Saddlebreds exist in the world as ‘thoroughbred-crosses’.

And if they’ve been dressaged it’s even less obvious what they are. People argue with me all the time and say that mine is a Morgan or crossbred. He isn’t - he’s a full saddlebred with a round butt and a normal set-on neck.

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Wow, there was a double Hancock in a sale on Sunday that was gorgeous, sold for $15,000. (I know squat about QH breeding, but the announcer was saying these are built to last.) I was interested, but I wasn’t registered to bid. Several of the horses I liked looked like they would be nice for hunters or dressage in their ridden demos.

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@ASBJumper - not really on hold, per se, but likely shopping next year. Partly because my STB is really coming along this year, but also because the market is NUTS right now! I did see two ASBs at a schooling show that I recognized from the rescue in KY I plan to contact. They were still coming along and sort of young/thin as is expected in the beginning, but nice types. Your mare is epic! I found this thread interesting - some additional options brought up, but so many don’t understand how much talent there is in the ASB market. For the breed, I want that to change, but for my pocketbook, it’s fine if they don’t recognize it just yet;)

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I hear you
 but like you said, for the sake of the breed, something has to give. The market needs to expand (and from what I can see, in the USA it really has in the past 5-6 yrs or so) and these horses need to be seen as viable sport prospects, because they are. Mine is not a fluke, she was bred by a reputable Saddleseat breeder, but when fed, trimmed and trained like a sporthorse - she looks, moves and acts like a sporthorse. :grin:

Glad to hear things are going well with your Standardbred - if you ever think you might like to try your hand at buying a youngster, I can breed you a magnificent, custom Dressage star! :heart_eyes:
**(Whispers): I have ROTSPON semen in the tank for next year


LOL

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Your mare is gorgeous. Does she jump too? Just curious because of your screen name.

No, I no longer own a jump or all purpose saddle so she has only done Dressage. I have popped her over a crossrail or two, and done lots of raised pole work, but no formal jump training. I have free-jumped her to 3ft just to see her natural ability/instincts, and she impressed me - i’ve no doubt that if I bred her to a prepotent stallion from strong jumper lines that she would produce a catty, talented mount for that ring as well. :wink:

My screen name is old as dirt. :rofl: It originated with my very first Saddlebred, who was herself a hell of a jumper and took me to provincial Champs in 2002. :grin:

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ASBJumper, I .love how her ears are back (the good way) in all the photos–she looks as though she’s really listening and tuned in to you. Your big grin is telling!

:heart_eyes:

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This reminded me, my PRE is the same. Hard pressed to find any photo of him without his “listening ears” when he’s working.

Lovely horse ASBJumper!

I’ve only ridden just a few while in America, but loved every one of them. The breed doesn’t really exist so much over here in my neck of the woods.

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I think OTTBs are fantastic, own one and I’m genuinely impressed with the heart and intelligence of those horses. That said, almost a year into it with the given horse and 2 years off the track two things have struck me.
First, they change a lot when they get back into a solid condition and while physically it’s always for the better, personality-wise you may be in for a surprise. For my mare I didn’t quite expect how cuddly she’d be (was pretty impersonal when we got her) and also how sensitive and generally anxious/pleaser type of a personality she turned out to be. We are managing, but I generally expected the anxiety to go down rather than up with increased athleticism. The second thing that surprised me was that I bought her for jumping (had all the right bloodlines, and even history of racing over fences), but I have a mild suspicion that she wants to be a dressage horse. I don’t really have super concrete goals for her and a timeline, but if I was dead set on jumping the 1.20ies within 2-3 years of purchasing her, I reckon I’d be in for a disappointment. If you are not too set on discipline or want to do a bit of everything that’s cool, but, again, you may not end up with the horse you thought you bought to support your goals. I suppose you take that risk with any horse, but something about the intensity of the track life and where they are mentally and physically by the time they are “done” with their careers probably makes them more susceptible to personality and preference changes when properly let down and restarted.

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If there are any Cheval Canadien breeders in your area, I would go take a look. Fabulous dispositions, good work ethics, well-conformed (if properly bred of course, and pretty easy on the eyes. Also, should not cost you an arm and a leg.

I love the Canadiens but have not found work ethic to be very present in the ones I’ve known. While fantastic as a low level or all around horse, I’ve yet to meet one that was go-ey enough or willing enough for Third Level and up. Maybe I’ve just met the wrong ones so far?

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It took me a year to convince the Canadien mare that I owned that walking was an acceptable, working gait. She had the best work ethic of any horse I have ever known and was always ready to go. Maybe it’s because she spent her first year skidding logs in Canada. Whatever it was, I wish all of my horses had had her work ethic and willingness to please.

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I can’t say I’ve ever met one. There must not be a lot of them in the US.

I don’t think there are very many in Canada, a rare breed.