Off breed prospect - what would you choose?

[J-Lu]

@LilyandBaron

I’ve enjoyed a lot of QHs through the years, and many quite nice! With OTTB and ASBs, I know of reputable “rescues” to contact for prospects. How do you find the QH “wash outs”? Just regular sales ads? I’ve worked some OTQHs but they go (sell) quickly and not many in my location (I lived out west in the past). I’m also debating some of the Amish sales. I live near Amish country and there are auctions and breeders around. Interestingly, they aren’t that cheap, either!

I think you can contact trainers who regularly train QHs. A “washout” might be a QH who doesn’t care about cows, who has a higher-set neck, is a larger one as a youngster, or doesn’t respond to (I’m sorry, but it is true) many harsh QH trainer’s methods. It is worth finding out when the horse was started and how much work it did because many QHs are started as 2 year olds and worked hard. They can have a lot of wear and tear by the time they are 4. Not all, but some do. Many ranches in, say, TX breed a bunch of youngsters every year and they’re broken as 2-3 year olds to do ranch work. The ranch might keep a few but sell the rest. Many of these horses have lived outside and mostly did ranch work. I have a friend who purchased one of these because he’s tall and this horse was tall and someone told him about it. He absolutely loves this horse about 2 years after purchase.

ETA: Don’t necessarily mention you are looking for a dressage prospect. Say “english” and say maybe! Prices can get jacked up.

[outerbanks77]

@J-Lu

t is worth finding out when the horse was started and how much work it did because many QHs are started as 2 year olds and worked hard. They can have a lot of wear and tear by the time they are 4. Not all, but some do.

This is the problem I’ve had with looking at stock bred horses. However, sometimes you can find one that got put on the backburner for whatever reason, and now the QH people don’t want it because it’s too far behind for futurities or Jr. horse classes. Some of the HUS bred horses can be quite nice if their neck set isn’t too low.

As far as myself, if and when I am in the market again (for an FEI horse theoretically), I will probably focus my search on a WB/Iberian or possibly WB/Arabian cross. I have also seen a few TB/Friesian crosses that look interesting and are priced reasonably, and I would also look at a larger Morgan. I’m taller with long legs, so that eliminates a lot of the interesting horses that tend to come in smaller packages.

[baybrio]

@Texarkana

Arabians and Arab crosses have had a fair amount of success reaching the highest levels of dressage. They also have their own breed shows with USDF recognized judges

Arab/Saddlebred (national show horses) can be fantastic. My mare didn’t have saddleseat movement so was much less desirable for that crowd and fewer $$$$. Judges loved her, a well know German judge asked about her breeding after her test. And so easy to ride. As I get older I’m into that. Honestly I no longer want a big moving horse, I’m just not that fit anymore.

Love Standardbreds. I’ve known two that competed through second level. Such solid citizens. I loved going to the barn. I evented one through prelim in my younger days. They can do the work when you find one with a good walk.

[Scribbler]

Standardbred are cool horses. They have energy and pride without being reactive like an OTTB. But I’ve seen a good half dozen under saddle so far and havent yet seen one going really nicely especially at canter. On the other hand, they aren’t getting bought by good trainers, who would always go for an OTTB in preference. So I don’t know their full capability. Based on what l have seen I wouldn’t get one. But the trot is made for dressage!

[TheDBYC]

Someone, somewhere (probably Shite Eventers) posted about her and her Standardbred trotting an entire X country course. He had a canter, but tended to forget when amped up, so she decided to just trot. It was a riot. The horse is so fast at the trot they finished within the normal time window.

[baybrio]

@Scribbler

But I’ve seen a good half dozen under saddle so far and havent yet seen one going really nicely especially at canter. On the other hand, they aren’t getting bought by good trainers

Years ago I rode a standard bred for a women who was on maternity leave. She trained with Karl Mikolka. The horse was solid 2nd level when I rode him. He had a good walk, trot and canter when being ridden. That was totally due to his training! The poor guy couldn’t free lunge at a canter around the indoor without scrambling. I had to ride with a cheat sheet because his routine was so specific. Karl Mikolka had every stride planned!

That said, the other standardbreds I worked with had much more natural ability, but you are right, canter is not their strong suit.

Hands down the easiest horse I’ve ever started was a QH / Trakehner mare. I swear I just got on and she figured it out. Balanced, uphill and the best mind I’ve every known.

I started several other Trakehners born the same year for that owner. I kissed the ground when the best moving mare left before I had to back her. She was a terror. If she didn’t want to do something her first thought was to strike out with both front feet. I know it wasn’t handling because all the horses had the same upbringing. Her dam was sweet.

The most frustrating, an appaloosa/Trakehner. That guy thought the best fun in the world was to spook or take off with me. He knew just how far he could take it without dumping me. After-all, when your rider falls off the fun is over.

Anyway, some people breed their “off” breed mare to a warmblood thinking they will get top dollar because the stallion is popular and has a high stud fee. Many find out nobody with money is looking for that cross. They are sometimes standing in the field as six year olds.

[luvmyhackney]

My hackney pony can trot faster than many horses can canter.

Never the less, many ASB farms have their own auctions. A couple are ending this Sunday and have some inexpensive options of young unstarted horses that are under 5k.

Link to one of them… https://www.32auctions.com/organizations/82804/auctions/101586?t=all

I have no relation or selling anything other than being interested in one of the hackney ponies listed in the auction.

[LilyandBaron]

I just got home from a lesson on the OTSTB, who was a pacer. He’s a wonderful horse. A tad “hot” for what many might expect, but sensible and tries his heart out. Things are a bit harder for him due to his conformation, but he’s progressing. He has a canter, but that’s our big focus - he can do the 3/4 20m circle left, but maybe a 1/4 circle right. I’m learning a lot, as I have to do my best to help him, but I do think next horse, I want to have fewer barriers. All three of mine had specific challenges. The TB mare is built like a hunter, but again, she could have done more in dressage if I’d focused on that sooner. The Azteca had the most natural talent, but had truly horrific training before I got him, then health issues that affected him. He progressed a lot, and I was gutted to retire him when I did. So I’d love to find the mind and health of the STB or TB (both awesome) with the talent of the Azteca. But with the way the STB went in his lesson, shopping may wait a little longer;)

[Scribbler]

In general, neither half of the Azteca is typically a high maintenance horse, Andy or QH. It is true that Iberian are a sensitive and do sometimes end up in the hands of idiots. If you like the Iberian mix look for a healthier one with less early trauma.

[eightpondfarm]

@J-Lu

But I’d say really really investigate the individual mustang. Some herds have a lot of draft influence and wouldn’t be particularly suitable because they’re heavy and not quick.

about finding the right kind of mustang…
It is easy enough to witness suspension and forward 'tude, because the BLM makes short vids of their auction horses now. I was able to have a vet and my coach and a couple of riders watch the videos when i was amassing my mustang collection last year. They are not a disappointment. The videos neglected to show how lovely they actually could move (due to size of containment area and too much pressure) In fact, i have more talent than i know what to do with!

[Texarkana]

@LilyandBaron

So I’d love to find the mind and health of the STB or TB (both awesome) with the talent of the Azteca. But with the way the STB went in his lesson, shopping may wait a little longer;)

You may really enjoy an Arab or half Arab if that’s what you’re seeking.

I currently have an Arab x Selle Francais. She isn’t very typey. Her build is more similar to a TB than an Arab or WB: just over 16.1h, fairly refined. At first glance, most assume she is another bay TB until they look more closely or see her move… then they are like, “what IS she?” (In a good way )

Her best attributes are that she is smart, sound, and supple. She is more of an eventer type than a dressage type, but her only limitations moving up the levels have been her rider (me). She has far more talent than I need at this point in my life.

One of the best things about Arab crosses, regardless of what you cross them with, is that you tend to get big gaits in a rideable package.

And again, I can’t stress enough how cool it is to have two options for competing USDF dressage. You can go to any open show plus you can pursue the Arab breed shows and reach their Sport Horse Nationals if you are serious about it. I appreciated that in my younger years when showing was more important to me. I still appreciate it now, but these days going to a couple local schooling shows a year is plenty of competition for me.

[SAB]

I might as well weigh in here. I have an Arab/WB cross. He is 16.3, has won at Arab sport horse nationals, is going FEI, etc. etc. he’s got a huge amount of grit, and try. I adore this horse, and yet, the work is hard for him. If you’re buying an Arab be very careful to inspect the hip angle and hind legs. They tend to be straight and set behind themselves, which makes true collection much more difficult as you move up the levels, as they tend to get wide and pushing out behind themselves with their hind legs.

[LilyandBaron]

This! I love my horses, and their brains and heart help so much, but I do wonder about applying the same effort to a horse with a similar work ethic, but one that is physically meant for the work!

[baybrio]

@LilyandBaron

but I do think next horse, I want to have fewer barriers

I completely understand looking for a horse with fewer barriers. I’m thrilled you are so open to other breeds!

The natural pacers have the hardest time, and of course some are hotter than others. Still I “believe” as a population they are less hot than an OTTB. That doesn’t make them easier to train as a dressage horse, just easier to put under saddle for say trail riding by less advanced riders.

[hoopoe]

does the standardbred have a trot at all? You might learn something here, but if you want to show I would not consider a pacer. If he can be conditioned back into a trot gait, it will be an interesting journey

[sparkygrace]

Regarding standardbreds, there are trotters and pacers, and some do both. Many have very nice trots, but do struggle at the canter. Lots of standardbreds end up as Amish cart horses. I have seen both pacers and trotters pulling Amish carriages while visiting the Midwest. My sister has a farm in an area populated by the Amish.

[Texarkana]

I have heard anecdotally from people who regularly work with STBs that a pacer can be better for retraining purposes because you can train them to trot correctly (as opposed to a racing trot). I’ve also heard they are easier to teach to canter.

But take that with a grain of salt. I’m just throwing it out there for the sake of conversation, not because I know it to be true.

In my own personal experience, my pacers I rode did not trot and had a really lateral canter.

I love STBs. I keep saying my next horse will be one… then I get yet another OTTB every time.

[Posting_Trot]

You might also consider an Irish Sport Horse (usually half Irish Draught, half TB). A full bred Irish Draught might be heavier than you want (my horse is an ID mare), but they tend to be smart, kind, and quite athletic.

The ISH can be the best of both breeds.

[LilyandBaron]

Standardbreds are sooooo varied! Hard to generalize. My guy is a pacer, but trots and canters at liberty and getting there undersaddle, and the first few strides are correct and cute. He prefers trot and canter when he’s balanced, even at liberty, so as he builds his strength undersaddle, he goes better and better. I have also heard from STB people that pacers are actually easier. The trotters can just trot HUGE to avoid canter… Mine has two big challenges - he really fusses with his mouth. Likely learned from the track, but worse than any OTTB I’ve ridden (over 200!), but I did dental, saddlefitter, bodywork, bitting clinic, bitless, etc. He’s better in full work - got worse this winter, and improving again. Then getting him to corral the power in his butt. Unlike an OTTB, that may pull themselves along on the forehand with a kind of lazy hind end, he is NOT lazy behind, but all the power goes backward in a straight line. With a sort of long back and a little butt high, it’s hard work to create a “circle” of energy. But this pic from the video of our lesson shows how hard he tries!

Part of me finds no greater reward than developing these diamonds in the rough. But as I get older, I somewhat selfishly want to apply the same effort to a horse with more aptitude. But I may have burst into joyful tears at his last show last year (his first year doing dressage shows). We went from a 45% in a test where he paced the whole time, other than the walk, to a 70%! I have kind of laid the gauntlet for myself - if we can’t canter the Intro C test this year, do I keep at it, or buy the next horse? And I don’t sell horses, so the Standardbred is with me for life. I’d just enjoy low level jumps and less worry about when, if ever, the canter really clicks. But as we come back to work this year, he is improving, so we may get that Intro C goal this year yet;)

[DawnJL]

Blockquote[quote=“SAB, post:53, topic:758578”]
If you’re buying an Arab be very careful to inspect the hip angle and hind legs. They tend to be straight and set behind themselves, which makes true collection much more difficult as you move up the levels, as they tend to get wide and pushing out behind themselves with their hind legs.
[/quote]

Some of the older lines have much more correct angulation for upper level work. I came from WBs so I gravitated towards Arabians that were of the older “working” type rather than some of the contemporary show type. The old-fashioned bloodlines I’m using in my program also have more bone than is usually seen in the modern show lines, IME.

It’s also important to keep in mind that the Arabian breed has been selected for stamina muscle fibers so building strength for collection and upper level work takes a bit more time than with breeds that have more natural muscular carrying and pushing power.