My vets are of the mind that once a dog gets old, like my 13 yr old GSDx, you should just feed them whatever they will eat. I’m just curious if this is the basic thinking on this subject across the board or if geriatric nutrition for dogs has been studied much.
I’m mostly curious because I’ve started giving my girl some raw meats with her normal dog food and it seems to have really added a spark to her. I had been thinking that I would have to have her put down this fall, before winter settled in, but now that she’s been getting raw meats, she is almost puppy-like. I didn’t do this as any sort of program, I just had some fresh meat and thought she would like some. After I noticed the difference, a few days or so, I decided to keep it up, but now I’m wondering if I should look into the proper nutrition for a dog her age and make sure it’s balanced, or if I can just keep giving her a little raw with her regular food because, at her age, it’s not going to harm her.
As dogs and cats get older their requirement for protein goes up but the requirement for quality protein goes up. i.e. protein from meat not gluten or plant protein etc.
I think the “feed them whatever they will eat” idea is more for old pets who are on their last legs and grow very fussy because of loss of smell etc. There certainly are times to feed a pet whatever it will eat but just for your average senior I would say you’re not there yet.
There is a controversy over mixing raw with kibble. I’m not sure if there has been more research done on this. Other raw people will chime in hopefully. But the idea is that kibble takes a longer time to pass through the digestive tract than raw meat does. When you’re feeding raw, it is safe because what bacteria is on it don’t have time to multiply significantly. But mixing it with kibble would slow it down causing a potential problem.
I’m not entirely sure if any of this has been demonstrated scientifically so take it for what it’s worth.
I would be careful though to make sure the dog is receiving balanced nutrition and that if you’re just adding raw meat to make sure it is not the significant portion of the daily diet. You can balance a raw diet but that requires a little more forethought. You have to make sure you’re feeding bone and organ meat in the appropriate ratios. In that case it’s a little more time/learning intensive. You can really screw up a raw diet. I’ve seen some dogs being fed raw that looked horrible. Worse than any dog I’ve seen on a cheap food diet even.
But feeding it supplementally (new word) is not such a concern in terms of balancing the nutrients as long as they are getting what they need from their regular food. There are also a lot of frozen and freeze dried, already balanced raw diets out there. Most of them have started using HPP to kill bacteria in case you’re nervous about that.
But the idea is that kibble takes a longer time to pass through the digestive tract than raw meat does.
this is a myth. It’s perfectly ok to feed raw mixed with kibble; in fact, it’s a good idea. Especially with older dogs- older dogs have a high risk of bloating and dying, and adding chunks of meat (raw or cooked) or wet foods to bowls of kibble dramatically cut down on the risk of bloat.
Yes, “senior” dogs need more, and higher-quality, protein than younger dogs. Most senior dogs would probably do far better if switched to a very high protein, very low carbohydrate diet (aka a raw diet). Senior dogs tend to put on weight, get dirty teeth, and have more difficulty digesting food, and cutting the carbs and plant material out of the diet will assist in preventing these problems; since dogs really only need carbs if they are very active (not most seniors), no reason to feed them to old dogs.
I agree with wendy. Mine is on almost all raw now. I’m still not 100% positive on the PMR vs BARF diets… I was leaning towards PMR, but the (new awesome) vet does BARF with her agility dogs in the AM and kibble in the PM. I’m hoping once my girl’s coat gets back to normal to do kibble AM and raw PM.
Hem, carbs are sugars and your brain needs them to function. It is a fact that an animal eating raw will eat guts containing plant material as well, ingesting carbs. In animals that are getting older and may show neurological deficits, it is important to feed carbohydrates.
Feeding raw is perfectly fine, as long as it’s well balanced and that it equates eating every part of a carcass - bones, organ meat, muscle meat and intestinal contents. So OP, depending what kibble your dog is on, the meat you are adding may just be that extra amount of high quality protein your dog needs right now. But I wouldn’t cut the kibble and switch to raw unless you’re very well prepared to do it properly (which a lot of people don’t).
There are some interesting videos on YouTube of Dr. Karen Becker being interviewed by Dr. Mercola. In one of them she talks about how people have become afraid to give their dogs real food. I think that is true. I add cooked meat to my dogs’ food, but at first I was terrified of upsetting the balance of the dog food I was feeding by adding anything else. I would just watch the dog’s weight as I think that one of the hardest things on the older dogs is being a little too heavy. I think the meat is probably good for him.
Research ketogenic diets. You do not need to consume carbs in any shape or form. Any human can live (and be vital) just peachy keen on fat and meat especially if the meat portion involves offal (liver primarily – that’s an excellent source of vitamins). Add eggs, the occasional tin of sardines, and some bone broth and you have covered ALL your bases. The very minimal amounts of glucose your brain needs to function can be made by metabolizing the protein you ingest. It’s called gluconeogenesis.
(The only reason for a human to eat/cycle carbs is if their level of exercise strips the glucogen stores from the muscle mass at a higher rate than it can be replenished like if you’re an ultra marathon runner. Dogs and cats can do this turnover of protein into glucogen to refuel muscle stores at a much faster rate.)
The carbs received by ingesting the digestive tracks of prey is extremely minimal. The difference between that and feeding a chunk of bread (as a crude example) is that the prey has already partially digested the carb with the enzymes it innately has. Cats, being obligate carnivores, do not require carbs because they get what they need from synthesizing it from proteins consumed. Dogs don’t either.
ETA: Taurine supplementation for cats is very important, so if not sure of the levels contained in the raw diet, it needs to be added.
Were you feeding a high quality kibble to begin with? Advertising is so deceptive these days. What people think are good brands can be horrible.
I would not expect to see a huge difference adding some meat scraps to a kibble like Core or Evo, but I would expect that kind of difference if you were feeding Pedigree, Iams, Beneful, etc.
Well, I’ve now learned about the ketogenic diet for humans. Sounds like more research needs to be done on it, while high levels of ketones seem to have a positive effect, I can’t see ingesting little fibre and high amounts of fat being that great long term, and food speaking, I like my veggies and I’ll stick to them.
There’s been more research to suggest that a) dietary fat (especially saturated fat and it’s much maligned partner in crime, cholesterol) is actually pretty darn beneficial and lack of adequate amounts of both actually do more harm than good and b) dietary fiber isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. While correlation does not equal causation, some recent studies have shown that high fiber consumers have a higher prevalence of polyps and precancerous legions. Think of it in these terms – rub a Brillo pad (indigestible fiber) on your hand (your colon) enough times and you’ll create damage and thereby scar tissue. A high rate of cellular turnover is what starts that slippery slope.
I like veggies too, which is why there’s generally a helping of steamed broccoli next to my butter-topped steak.
There seem to be little benefits and more disadvantages (read the 5th paragraph) to the ketogenic diet (which still contained 5.8% carbs), wouldn’t subject my own dogs to it without a medical reason.
I presume you’re talking about this line: “The diet can cause significant problems, however, especially GI tract upset, hyperlipidemia, renal calculi, stunted growth and pancreatitis.”
I wonder the percentages.
The first one (GI tract upset) is a bit of a non-starter – any change in diet good or bad can cause that in the short term. The second one is natural during the adjustment period of the body shifting to using ketone bodies for fuel – happens in humans too which is why triglycerides can read super high on a blood test after a person starts a low-carb diet (it’ll work itself out after a few months to end up being well within guidelines). Pancreatitis can be related to hyperlipidemia. And kidney stones I can understand if the dog isn’t getting enough liquids. Stunted growth makes no sense though – I doubt wolves, coyotes, etc routinely supplement their diet with the typical carb-loaded kibble and they certainly don’t look stunted to me!
(For reference, to “go ketogenic” as a human, your percentages generally run no more than 20% of your calories from carbohydrate (in the form of fruit and veg). A typical split is 70% from fat, 20% from protein, and 10% from fruit and veg.)
Obviously if you have a dog with issues to begin with you’re not going to throw caution to the wind and do something without easing him into it and without some sort of beginning baseline bloodwork to know where you’ve started.
If you read the whole article, it does state how many dogs suffered from pancreatitis troughout the study.
I still don’t see a point in feeding a dog this diet, unless he’s got problems with seizures and multiple medications aren’t helping. They’ve evolved as omnivores eating our scraps for many, many years and have been surviving just fine.
Thanks for the precisions on the carb precentages of the human diet, it’s more precise than “peachy on fat and protein” which I was taking as a 0% carb and that sounded a little extreme. It sounds like the crossfit-paleolothic diet craze I’ve heard about, and less like this guy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/derek-nance-raw-meat_n_4023019.html I sure hope my dietary fiber is not traveling through me in the form of a Brillo pad, that sounds unpleasant but must make for the cleanest of colons.Veggies be damned!
Mine is on almost all raw now. I’m still not 100% positive on the PMR vs BARF diets… I was leaning towards PMR, but the (new awesome) vet does BARF with her agility dogs in the AM and kibble in the PM. I’m hoping once my girl’s coat gets back to normal to do kibble AM and raw PM.
