Old mare, ribby, big belly

[quietann]

So on another thread, I’d mentioned that I thought Feronia might be diagnosed with PPID…

She has been tested for it every year for at least 10 years and has always been negative, whether by ACTH or TSH stim test. She had a TSH stim test yesterday, and… completely normal, as was her CBC and a couple of other things.

BUT. She is 26, and has been an easy keeper until recently, borderline IR, no history of laminitis. She came out of last winter so fat that we put her on a 3 month course of Thyro-L, and added Metaboleeze towards the end, on vet’s recommendation. She looked great all summer, on about 18-20 pounds of first cut hay and a ration balancer. Well, except for the 3 colics that turned out to be due to stone dust.

Around October 1 she was dropping too much weight, so we took her off the Metaboleeze. Vet recommended adding TC Senior to her diet. And her hay was increased. Barn owner hasn’t been really clear how much, but she’s stuffing 2 hay pillows very full at least twice a day. She says my little mare is getting more hay than her Warmbloods!

OTOH, I observed today that she wasn’t that interested in eating hay from her nets, which have 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch netting; I pulled a flake out of one and she gobbled it down. I have a hay pillow with bigger 1 3/4 inch holes on order.

At this point she’s ribby but has a hay belly. She gained a little weight, but that stopped when the weather got colder. She lives outside with a shed 24/7. She’s always blanketed at night or if it’s precipitating, but if she’s too warm she won’t eat her hay. Generally she’s blanketed one level lighter than the other horses, and/or has her neck cover left off. E.g. tonight the low is supposed to be in the low 20s, and they’re in mediums, but she’s in a 100g.

She is as bright and active as always, manure is normal, teeth are good, etc. We go trail walking 2 to 4 miles 4 or 5 times a week. BO is worming her next week as we’re finally having a true hard freeze. It would surprise me if she has worms as the barn is a closed herd of 5 mares.

Her 2 meals a day are:
1/2 pound TC ration balancer
1/2 pound Purina Outlast (ulcer history)
2 pounds TC senior
1 TB salt
10000 mg MSM
3000 IU Vitamin E (neuro history)

In the morning she gets 150 mg meloxicam for arthritis; she was on Equioxx but it wasn’t working that well anymore.

Vet suggested adding alfalfa pellets or oil; I’m thinking pellets just to keep things easier for the barn owner. But am curious about what y’all might think.

Photos of ribbiness

On a 4 mile walk on Sunday.

[Demerara_Stables]

I have one that does have PPID, and is on thyro L for hypothyroid. She looks similar. I think your mare looks great - I like the ones that are pre disposed to laminitis to be a tick on the thin side (provided you can blanket appropriately in the winter). The mare in my care also is bright, active, and gets the zoomies when the herd does. She gets a longe twice a week this time of year, just to keep the muscle tone up. She gets really fat in the spring (despite a second thyro L dose, more work, and a muzzle), so I appreciate this time of year where her weight is at a safer place with less work.

[cilla1]

Feronia is gorgeous. I believe it can only be a normale weight fluctuation due to her age and actual season. Our mare (20 yo haffie) dropped some weight too. Her tests came back normali, I added a proteic ration balancer and oil and she’s gaining her weight back just on time for the freeze snap expected for next week

[Foxglove]

Consider feeding hay without a net.

Last winter, (starting in October 2023) I decided to net all hay, stall and pasture. It was an experiment to see how much hay was being lost when feeding on the ground. As one might guess, with careful measurement, 1/3 of the hay (small bales) I was feeding on the ground was ‘recovered’ by using nibble nets (1.5 inches).

That was the good news.

The bad news was in January, after three months of netting every bit of hay I put out (one bale at a time, hung in sheds, replaced when 1/4 empty with a new bale, the 1/4 remainder then added to the “new” hay net) --walked into the barn while the farrier was trimming my 26 year old hunter --maybe it was the bright lights of the barn, or the angle I stood at, but my lovely, devoted friend of 20+ years was THIN --as in I could see his ribs under his (very thick) winter coat.

Panic! Immediately I emailed the PhD at ADM Feed ( a doctorate in Equine Nutrition) and asked what to do! He suggested different feed and a supplement and amounts to feed my old horse.

AND STOP USING A HAY NET!

In three months, the horse looked better --he gained about 150 pounds (tape) by the time the green grass came in around April --and once the green grass hit --he regained every pound he lost and then some.

My conclusion was that my old fellow just couldn’t get enough hay out of the hay net to keep his weight up. FYI his teeth are ok --horse DDS was out (comes once a year). Horse does “quid” a tiny bit --horse DDS said that as long as I fed the awesome alfalfa that I use (the best hay money can buy in my area) the old horse will figure out how to “strip the alfalfa flowers” from the stalks and keep himself well fed on the hay.

So you might try feeding hay without a net. It worked for me (so far).

I have three other horses —two have hay nets hunt in their sheds and are in separate pastures from the old horse and his buddy (pasture sound, but unrideable). They both have hay just thrown on the ground --and 20 acres of pasture to roam.

[Jackie_amp_Starlette]

I second removing the hay net. My 24-year-old mare was doing fine until the pastures went away. I did the same “WTF why is she losing weight?” Did a Nancy Drew and figured out:

1. Been getting hay from the same farmer for 7 years. The last 3 have had issues. This year’s had to be totally replaced being baled too wet, and he replaced it with dry hay, but I didn’t realize how over mature it was until I had to put my horses on it 24/7. My gelding eats it but my mare is not happy with it. Found a new farmer and will be sourcing from him next year (bought bales from him already and they love it).

2. I know she’s got expired teeth - so chewing is an issue. This overly mature hay was totally inedible for her. She has no problem with the orchard grass mix I got for her.

3. Last year and this year I noticed she has been leaving hay in the net. So even with her wasting hay, she’s now eating most of it.

4. I increased her feed and have switched to Unbeetable Complete from Tribute Essential K. I had great results getting my 34-year-old mini to put on weight with it this summer, so I am actually putting all my horses on it (another laminitic mini and my gelding).

5. I did worm her(them) with Equimax fall wormer to cover bases.

She has gained weight nicely and I am happy where she is at now. I think the biggest changes was removing the hay net, increasing her feed, and mostly getting better hay.

Horses getting older can be a challenge!

[Fruitarider]

I don’t mean to highjack this thread as I’m seeing the same thing with my 25 year old. When removing the hay nets do you do it slowly? My horses have been on nets for a few years and I don’t want to cause any gastric upsets. TIA

[Jackie_amp_Starlette]

I just did it. My horses also get pasture grazing, and in the winter, I just toss flakes outside on the snow for them to eat. I am also retired so go out a few times a day and give hay, at night I give enough hay to last until morning. I don’t see how removing hay nets will cause any gastric upset - I’d be more concerned about the horse not getting enough hay with the nets.

[RedHorses]

My senior was down to a BCS of 3/10 a couple of months ago. I was seriously worried about getting him through the winter if he didn’t gain something.

I increased his EquiJewel (rice bran supplement) and started hanging a haynet in his shelter as an addition to his regular hay, which is fed away from the shelter. I started doing that in the summer when he was getting away from sun and flies (and not eating) and it helped. I know his buddy ate some of it, but anything he ate was more than he’d have eaten without the net. He tends to go off morning grain in the summer, which doesn’t help any.

I also have alfalfa cubes under his nose whenever I have him in for grooming, etc.

[2DogsFarm]

I only net hay for hauling.
Otherwise it’s fed on the ground in stalls.
Dead of Winter, I’ll toss a couple flakes outside, but horses can go into stalls anytime.
To date - on my 3rd set of geldings here in 20yrs - there’s very scant wastage. More often every last wisp is eaten.
My 21ish (no proof of age) TWH started looking ribby this year as temps dropped.
I added a cup of TC Sr to his 2 cups whole oats (2X daily) & just upped that to 2 cups TC Sr.
He’s looking/feeling better - ribs are a hint, not glaring.
10yo mini gets 2/3 cup TC Sr - plenty for keeping him fit w/o being fat. He’s also on Thyro-L since considering laminitis 5yrs ago.
24yo Hackney Pony is on oats only (& BOSS, they all get BOSS) & almost too round.
Horsewise friend seeing him for the first time asked “is she in foal?”

40-50# bale of 1st cut orchard grass lasts me a day to day & a half. Could increase amounts fed if temps go subzero.

[cayuse]

I know you said her teeth are OK but is there any chance she might have EOTRH lurking? One of mine had what we thought were pretty good teeth, he was floated twice a year with no obvious issues. Then he started being picky with the hay net, finally refused to eat from the net, so I had him checked (by a different vet that had been floating) and she was suspicious of the teeth, she did x-rays and found his teeth were a mess and he ended up having 5 teeth removed. He perked up after that!

[mmeqcenter]

Generally, ribby with a hay belly means not enough protein. So, I think adding alfalfa pellets is a good start. Or switch the grass hay for alfalfa hay.

How long has she been getting the TC Senior added and hay increase? Weight gain takes longer than weight loss, you might be fine where you are if you wait a bit to see if she’s gaining or not.

I too would nix the hay net. I doubt the 1 3/4" holes will make her much happier. They make hay bags that have one big hole to pull from, if your BO must have it hanging in a bag/net of some kind.

[luvmyhackney]

I’d up the ration balancer to a full pound at least. Increase the protein.

Then add alfalfa pellets or hay if possible.

She actually looks to be a good weight. Wouldn’t want her any thinner but it’s easier on the joints if they are a touch ribby vs fat.

[quietann]

Thanks, this makes sense. I’m just so used to her being an easy keeper! I really haven’t seen her ribs much since she was in full dressage training back in 2008-2009.

[GraceLikeRain]

Have you run a fecal? Even a closed herd can have stuff crop up.

If she will eat more volume I agree on the alfalfa pellets soaked or adding a 5 lb flake of alfalfa

[Small_Change]

@cayuse

I know you said her teeth are OK but is there any chance she might have EOTRH lurking? One of mine had what we thought were pretty good teeth, he was floated twice a year with no obvious issues. Then he started being picky with the hay net, finally refused to eat from the net, so I had him checked (by a different vet that had been floating) and she was suspicious of the teeth, she did x-rays and found his teeth were a mess and he ended up having 5 teeth removed. He perked up after that!

I was going to suggest the same thing - EOTRH horses don’t always like pulling hay from nets due to dental pain. An easy way to sort of screen for it is to offer a carrot, and see if they will snap it with their incisors. If they won’t, and just try to move it around to chomp up with teeth other than the incisors, its a fairly good indication of dental pain in the incisors.

[quietann]

I’m definitely not ruling out dental pain. The vet dentist is coming in 3 weeks so I’ll ask her then. Horses with EORTH seem to do so much better once they don’t have their incisors. As of September, she was still snapping off carrots but that’s before she started losing weight.

[cayuse]

I also learned during my year of dental dilemmas (and we’ve had many), that if a horse all of a sudden can’t/won’t tolerate a dental spec, it’s a pretty good indicator of EOTRH. Just throwing that out there in case it ever helps someone.

[quietann]

Hm, I’m starting to think teeth more and more. I haven’t seen Feronia since Tuesday, but the last batch of hay the barn got was cut really late; it came out of one of the big hayfields on either side of the barn, which weren’t cut until late August for some reason. Normal for us is late May to early July. The hay has some very thick stems, more like straw. She’s picking out the finer stuff and not eating the thick stems at all; in fact she won’t even pick them up in her mouth. So she’s making a big mess, but I can’t blame her.

DH bought me an embarrassingly large carrot, so I’ll do the carrots test tomorrow.

[cayuse]

Do you happen to use Leah for your dentals? I know your in that general area. She’s awesome. I can’t say enough good things about her. She’s the one who has helped get my mini Cappy sorted out.

[quietann]

Yes, Leah is wonderful. She has been Feronia’s dentist since 2017. In the spring, she said molars on one side were wearing down a bit, just something to note.