Lusi fan here, and found some of the above comments very interesting. From my personal experience with ONE horse and an older ammy rider: Mine is a stallion imported as youngster from Brazil. I bought him at 13. He is the bravest horse I have ever seen, nothing rattles him, nothing spooks him. He has a focus and work ethic that is amazing. His movement is somewhat flatter than the stallion here and he does not have a “paddle”.
He can be hot in the sense that his brain works very quickly and then his body follows, creating tension and a sense of rushing thru things. He had been pushed some at a sales barn before I got him and that did not help. BUT he responds very well to a calm, supporting ride and he has taught me a TON.
He is not the easiest ride because of his strength and the “stallion neck” which is one of his escape mechanisms - pull mom out of the tack, lol. But he is never really naughty. And I can drop his reins and hack him anywhere like a western pleasure pony.
We have gotten some nice scores at PSG, working on I1. W/ a pro ride on him he could be pushing 70% so the talent is there.
Did I mention that he is rock solid sound, awesome feet, no issues of any sort?
Yes this describes the hotness that I experience as well. They are quite intelligent and their brains work quickly (as a bull fighting horses should) and they tend to anticipate. I don’t feel in danger on these horses because they get hot, but they don’t get stupid…if that makes sense.
I’m also a sucker for a good Roman nose on a horse. I try to convince my husband that he needs a Lusitano all the time. A nice taller fellow with a convex profile.
And I agree, a horse can be international quality and good minded. Also warmbloods breed for dressage.
A lot of people think that Iberian horses are far easier than warmbloods and that they are very friendly and that is not the case. Lusitanos are very sensitive and like to really test the riders. They are not spooky, on the contrary, they are very brave because they were selected for centuries to fight with bulls and they were never selected for calmer temperaments or work ethic. That is what makes them not the easiest horses. I was just showing why I don’t think Dragao das Figueiras was approved to satisfy the amateur market based on my knowledge of the breed and the talks I’ve had with other dressage riders and Lusitano breeders. Here in Mexico we have a really strong breeding of this horses and you can find quality that it is able to compete with the best of Portugal 
Totally agree! The Spanish horse has been selected for temperament in a more strict way for a long time. That is one of the big differences between the two Iberian breeds!
A very interesting quote from the article “The Shaping of Piaffe and Passage by Fashion, History and Genetics” wrote by Giacomini and that can be found on Eurodressage:
“Each period of history has it’s own favourite breed of horse for the specific purpose of that time. The style in which that breed moves ends up becoming the model for whichever movement it is genetically predisposed. Iberian horses have defined the collected movements to this day - piaffe, passage, pirouettes - for every other breed that attempts to perform them in their perfection. The sitting piaffe riders seek to achieve, hocks flexed, knees on the horizontal, neck erected, corresponds exactly to the way Iberian horses interpret the movement.
It is interesting to notice that leading dressage breeding nations (Germany, Holland, Denmark) use to select horses strictly on the basis of the amplitude of the gaits. They are now thinking about collection and piaffe as the basic qualities of the dressage stallions. Modern sport horses are now inching the way towards the breed standard of the Lusitano (square frame, uphill balance, knee action). The leader seller of dressage horses, PSI, shows all young horses on a piaffe in hand presentation that is a fundamental deciding factor for international buyers.”
The reason I bred to a Lusitano (Saphiro is the sire of my filly) is for bravery, brains, looks and the sensitivity that the baroque bring to the table. Sensitive but sane is what I like to ride. The dam of my filly, Han/TB, was (lost her to colic Oct 2016) just this. The sensitivity of the TB but so very sane to deal with. One of the easiest horses I have ever started. Saphiro is known for putting good minded brave horses that are nice to train. WBs, at least the ones I have worked with over the years, are not the most sensitive to deal with and can be quite challenging in their work. Now mine do have jumping lines more so than dressage lines, so that may factor in. Regardless I am not enamored of the hind legs of many of the WBs, not the conformation but the slowness of them. My filly is quite quick. One of the biggest things though that I appreciate about her is how she thinks. She is just so sensible in every day life. She can be spicy at times especially when the wind gets to blowing but for the most part she has never done anything to cause me concern unlike my WBs who are not the most sensible of horses in daily life. My Old g is quite the chicken.
We have these incredibly elastic, supple animals that have extraordinary movement… and they’re chronically unsound.
What a sweeping generality. I think it is more fair to say that many equine athletes of ANY breed and nearly any discipline tend towards chronic unsoundness. Why? It is the nature of being an athlete combined with the fact that far too many horses are started too young and ridden too hard throughout much of their lives.
That said, who watched the winter Olympics? Lots of athletic young folks with story after story about how this or that athlete was coming back from X injury or struggled with Y chronic issue.
This is what happens when bodies are pushed in sport. Lots of repetitive work simply breaks a body down.
Personally, I am not a fan of mixing Baroque and WB horses.
And it is a myth that Baroques have better temperaments. The most stubborn, explosive temperaments I’ve ever ridden were either Baroque or draft.
There are hot horses of all breeds and types. In general, I think your average WB is far more ammy friendly than your average TB, Arab, etc.
But these are generalities. It really is about the bloodline…for all breeds.
Perhaps it is a myth to you that Baroques have better temperaments, but in my experience they do. This is purely anecdotal evidence though. I think it also depends on the riders personality, style, demands, etc. Because I think that WB’s can be more stubborn and explosive. I currently keep my horses at a barn that has a population of WB’s and Iberians, so it is interesting to ride and witness how they are different. Again, this is my sample and I’ve also seen more riders convert to Iberian from WB than the other way around. Could just be our area.
I have been curious about the cross, but I’d like to see quite a bit of them before I venture down that road myself.
Not wanting to generalize, but I think part of the reason for the increase in the # of Iberians that I’m seeing at shows has to do with SIZE. When I went WB shopping 8 years ago, the smallest horse I could find that met other criteria was 16"2". My Lusitano is 15’3". Much better for me and many other ammy riders.
It might be a sweeping statement, but spend some time at the major vet hospitals… and you’d know… I’ve heard from top vets countless times how WBs are plagued with neurological & soundness issues. Spend any amount of time with vets in and around Welly-world if you don’t believe me. Top bloodlines and top quality horses too. Some are horses barely even breaking their 2nd level career so it’s hardly “repetitive work” causing a breakdown.
I disagree about your statement baroque horses not having better temperaments. Perhaps that has been your experience, but it has not been mine.
I also disagree that WBs are “far more ammy friendly” than TBs… Take a TB out of a race environment and it is a completely different horse. It has also not been my experience that WBs are far more amateur friendly than TBs either. As a whole I find TBs much more willing to work with you, whereas WBs tend to either need repetitive nagging/reminders or they simply don’t want to work with you at all. I’ve also found that TBs are much more sensible about external stimuli than WBs are… many of the WBs I’ve ridden have been very squirrelly and/or always looking for a way out of work. Of course some of it very well might be a physical issue manifesting as a behavioral problem, but I’ve handled so many rotten, intractable WBs in my career. I can’t say the same for TBs.
I do agree about it being “all about the bloodline”… and in WBs, there are many bloodlines with cervical arthritis, DSLD, kissing spine…
I have to agree with those that find the temperament of Iberians to be better, generally, than that of a WB. Because they have been bred to be bullfighting horses, they are very brave and TRAINABLE. Think about it. If a horse were not easily trained, it could mean serious injury or death to the rider (not to mention the horse, but he has no recognition of that). Hot, yes. Sensitive, yes. For the very same reasons: “when I say move, you better move!”
But, they aren’t for everybody. They can be tense and tight. But I have yet to find a spooky one, which is one thing I really like. I am on my 3rd: my first being an Andy/Arab cross of no particular lineage. Bought him as a coming 3 yr old and trained him to I-1. Smartest horse ever and a perfect joy to take to a show. My second was a Lusitano imported from Brazil, and he was tense, tense. But never felt dangerous, just a major over-achiever, “I got this, Mom, let me do this”. So, that made him difficult but neither of these horses ever shut down or said a flat, “No.”
My last is a PRE I just imported from Spain. Just getting to know him, and he tends to be more laid back than the other two, but, at my age, I need laid back. I hope he and I will ride off into the sunset together! When in Spain, I rode both Lusitanos and PRE’s. I did find, as with my Brazilian Lusi, the Portuguese horses seemed hotter, leggier, a little lighter in build. But still felt very safe.
My experience with WB’s has not been nearly as positive. A Dutch mare I imported years ago is the cause of all the arthritis I now have…a young Dutch gelding that was huge, and a physical bully. And, lastly, a green WB mare that has decided she needs another job…None of these has brought me the joy my Iberians have. Which just may be my story. A very small sample…
Temperament discussion aside:
I’m curious who would breed what type of mare to him? What is the breeding goal here? Do you find the closest physical type to match the Lusitano and try to breed type to type? (Some is the F line horses seem similarly square, though obviously in different proportions - Fidertanz comes to mind.)
Or are people thinking that you take a mare with weakness where the Lusitano is strong (in gaits, strength behind/for collection)? I find this second thought process to be somewhat lacking because we know genetic traits aren’t necessarily a 50/50 split so you won’t end up with something a 50% blend of either so I’m curious by the logic there. (Which follows up with, who would go to this stallion in lieu of perhaps crossing over into the jumper lines or the D line stallions who seem to have a reputation for a powerful hind end? It feels like there’s a “less risky” alternative that in general, has been already proven for results.)
And then of course, what does this detract from the mare? What does the warmblood lose in the process? Freedom of the shoulder (in the extension comes to mind) is one I can think of.
So is the logic here a first generation “patch job”/expectation for immediate success? Or does this become a program where the real reward is when this stallion is two or three generations back in the pedigree?
Ultimately, I would be very curious to hear from warmblood breeders on this: would you, and why? Wouldn’t you, and why?
I’m not sure that the decision had anything to do with soundness. According to GOV, the decision was based on “Character, strength in his back and possibility to collect.”
I think the movement towards fantastic movement in foals/young horses has perhaps left back strength and collection possible areas of improvement. Does anyone know of what sort (if any) of mares the previously approved Andalusians have brought? Or any offspring from such pairings?
Halt, we do have very different experiences. I grew up re-schooling OTTBs. I know the breed very, very well. There were many great TBs back in the day, fewer now.
Over the years, I’ve ridden and loved horses of many breeds. A good horse is a good horse.
I switched to WBs when I got into UL dressage. The work is simply easier for the right WB and my horses have stayed sound due to picking the right lines, superb management, and pure dumb luck. My favorite WB GP horse retired sound in his early 20s and is currently teaching a friend tempis in his late 20s. There are plenty of such stories. And plenty of stories of those who never crack 2nd. But lots of horses of all breeds never crack 2nd. You need a hint of real collection and a medium to do correct 2nd.
I haven’t had a WB w/neuro issues, but I did have a TB w/wobblers and a TB w/EPM, though neuro issues happen to many (most?) breeds.
I’ve spent many Winters in Welly World, though I’m in Loxahatchee these days. WBs aren’t the only horses in the clinics. There are lots of others too, including TB polo ponies.
I’m not sure why you think WBs are more fragile than other breeds. The truth is that all horses are fragile and it is up to us to manage them as well as possible.
The TB ride is different from the WB ride. Perhaps your bad luck with WBs is simply because your riding skill set is better suited to a TB. IDK. But, there are lots of former UL WB horses out there teaching the next group of UL riders. And younger ones being brought along by their Ammy owners. Believe me. These horses can take a joke.
All this said, I don’t like the Baroque / WB cross. Too many Frankenhorses. The Baroque/TB cross is much better, assuming the right match.
Interesting, as someone who also knows TBs well, I would argue that the TBs now are better than they were back then… certainly the advent of several very popular sires that are excellent movers (just off the top of my head AP Indy, Nijinsky, Giant’s Causeway) and the proliferation of them through the TB breed has really helped the TB from a sport-horse perspective, in my eyes. I will say it seems much more common to find a good moving TB now than it was 10-15 years ago. YMMV. There’s always been good and bad movers in the TB breed, but I’ve seen some better quality TBs in the last 5-10 years than I had before.
It’s not that WBs are inherently more fragile. I don’t think I said that. There are certain lines, very popular lines, that have soundness issues, due to conformation or otherwise. But they’re being heavily bred to, because they’re popular lines - that is the problem. When a large portion of the breeding population is being bred towards these lines, it not only lessens the genetic diversity but it also becomes a problem going forward because now an even bigger part of the breeding population (down the road) has this particular flaw it needs to overcome.
I find that in general, WBs can be very spooky and flighty. I don’t think it had to do with my riding style being better suited to TB, so much as it had to do with the individual WB as I will say I rode many WBs without a problem. Some are very challenging and looking for ways out of work. Some are amateur dreams and are lovely to ride. No one is saying there aren’t amateur friendly WBs out there… but people are saying in their experience, after having WBs, they’ve looked for something else. That should count for something, shouldn’t it?
I’ve ridden both lovely schoolmaster amateur’s dream WBs, and very hard, sensitive WBs. I’d say I’ve ridden more challenging and not-straightforward WBs at this point, easily.
There’s good and bad in every breed and I never understand why people can’t accept the fact there are some negative traits in the WB breed that need our attention.
I think other posters with more experience than me with Baroque breeds captured the Baroque’s “hotness” well - I never had to worry about a Baroque horse taking off out of control. I know many amateur riders that are not afraid of horses that are tense or tight so long as they are not spooky - there’s a huge difference between a horse that is “hot” by virtue of forward-thinking (Baroques and some TBs) and a horse that is “hot” by virtue of “spooky” or “looky”.
YMMV but I know most Amateurs prefer a horse that isn’t a keg of dynamite between their legs, and many prefer a tense horse over a spooky one. Most amateurs want a horse that works with them rather than runs away from them or bucks/rears/bolts.
In my experience with the Baroque breeds, they tend to think very differently but they don’t tend to want to leave you in the reeds. They’re very trainable in that regard and that is why they have huge appeal to the Amateur market.
The big problem I think is talking about “Baroque breeds” when there are very significant differences between them. You really cannot compare the temperament of a PRE and a Lusitano because historically they were developed in a very different way. The ride on a Spanish horse is very very different from the ride on a Portuguese horse.
I understand that in many places of the world this breeds are placed under the same registry and even breed between them but this doesn’t mean they are the same.
I’ve had the good fortune of owning approved Lusitano stallions and riding another good handful of them. I can’t talk a lot about mares because only in recent years they are starting to work under saddle. In my experience pure Lusitanos are not the most amateur friendly horses. They are not spooky but they are horses with very strong opinions and they are not afraid to disagree with the riders. My old stallion Limoeiro (who is now 26 years old and happily retired) was champion of the breed and extremely educated in Grand Prix exercises but if he was not in the mood he would run towards a wall and lean there until the rider was dismounted. Now I own his son, another approved stallion with huge talent, but I really need to convince him every day to respect me as he likes to really test me acting spooky, whooshing and doing a lot of crazy things. The thing with Lusitanos is that when they start getting hot, the rider should react pushing them forward because if you try to hold them or calm them down they tend to get hotter and stronger (bucks, rears and dynamite under the legs included!).
The Spanish horse has a much much calmer temprtament. They tend to have a better work ethic and are “colder” in their reactions, they even can get a bit heavy, specially when we talk about the older lines. This is the reason they have been much more popular for a much longer time than the Lusitano.
I also agree that in any breed there can be horses that are very calm and amateur friendly and others that are much difficult. As I said, the warmblood stallion I own is the sweetest horse ever (he is Casall x Chin Chin x Voltaire) but I also know there are some very difficult lines.
Same happens to the Lusitano, but if I had to describe the breed I would say hot, fiery, extremely intelligent and opinionated and as a horse that needs a firm and experimented rider.
So nope, no thing as “baroque breeds”. Talking about the PRE and the Lusitano, these are two very ancient and different breeds who were developed for different purposes and that as a consequence have different temperaments and are ridden in different ways
is_V that is funny, I was just in Spain last May riding at Epona. Was sharing that I had a Lusitano X filly with Raphael Soto who I had a lesson with while there, he said same horse, no difference in the breed. That is what I had always heard, they are the same breed type. I know my filly is not hot.
I think it would depend on the WB mare who I would put to a PRE or Lusitano. I would not put a heavier old style to this stallion. Like I said, my mare that I bred to Saphiro was half TB so of lighter and more sensitive than most WBs.
halt, my thoughts are very much like yours, WBs can be spooky and challenging to ride and train. More veterinarians I know hate dealing with them and their AA owners because they are ill tempered beasts to deal with. (not mine because mine have had firm rules and regs in place since birth and I am the first to discipline when needed) A good friend of mine went looking for a horse in 2016, she thought she wanted a WB I would not let her look at one, plus for what she had to spend she would not have been able to find one that suited her. She ended up with a nicely talented and level headed OTTB big guy at 16.3 but kind.
And I still have to disagree (with all the respect Rafael Soto deserves, I loved Invasor). I can provide different names of books about the development of this breeds. I have been around Lusitanos for more than 20 years and I am good friends with some of the best breeders here in Mexico and I have also known very respected breeders from Portugal and judges of the breed from Portugal and Brazil. My family also used to breed Lusitanos. This has been discussed a lot and simply by studying the origins of Spanish and Portuguese horses you can see the differences between them.
The Spanish and Portuguese Studbooks separated in the 60’s so this is very recent, but since the Muslim conquest of the Penninsula, the breeds were used for very different purposes.
I know Saphiro has huge success in the US thanks to his good temperament and colour. Good for him. As I have said, in every breed there are horses with good temperaments and bad temperaments.
We have a very strong and solid breeding both of PRE and Lusitanos here in Mexico and there are really knowledgeable people. Most dressage riders in here also work with this breeds. I train with a Grand Prix dressage rider that has a lot of experience with both breeds and we always talk about how different they are between them.
“The Lusitano horse is the direct descendant of this Iberian horse, the forebear of all horses that were at the root of all equitation throughout the world. For various reasons and differing criteria over the past three hundred years, the characteristics of the original horses of Andalusia and of Portugal diverged, the latter remaining closer to the original Iberian horses from which both are descended.” - Arsénio Raposo Cordeiro
Arsénio Raposo Cordeiro was the responsible for the empowerment of the Lusitano Studbook, and editor of the first Breed Standard. He studied much about the origin of the Lusitano horse, sharing his knowledge and leaving books of great interest and beauty on the topic. My favorite book of his is “Filhos do Vento” or Sons of the Wind.
“With their shared history and similar physiques, the various Iberian breeds are often confused with one another. However, there are subtle yet significant differences between Andalusian and Lusitano horses. Genetically, both breeds are quite similar, yet they have enough differences that two separate breed registries were established in the 1960’s. Even though Portugal traces its roots as a separate country back to the 12th century, it took some time for the breeds to diverge significantly. There remained little difference between the Lusitanos and Andalusians until the 17th century, when local laws and customs started influencing horse breeding. Iberian horses have always been bred for performance rather than appearance alone, and this is reflected in the differences between the two breeds. The first major divergence happened in the late 17th century, when mounted bullfighting was outlawed in Spain but remained popular in Portugal. As Spanish bullfighters began fighting on foot, Andalusian horses began being bred as mounts for the nobility. Lusitanos still needed to prove themselves in front of a bull. The basic look of the two breeds, with their distinctive flowing locks, compact bodies, and Roman noses, remained the same, but subtle differences began to show. Although the two studbooks allowed cross-breeding until 1966, those differences are still present in modern Iberian horses.”
"The highly spirited Lusitanos have a more fiery temperament than Andalusians."
While Lusitanos are genetically identical to Andalusians - they have been selectively bred differently, so yes, I believe they can be more “hot”. It doesn’t take many generations to change temperament - as someone pointed out earlier on this thread, we use to look at the Warmblood as an easy-going (even lazy) mount. They are still physically and genetically very similar, yet very different horses because the were purpose bred for different reasons.
And when we use the term Baroque, I’d like to point out, that includes Lippizans and Friesians too - all are considered Baroque breeds - if we are only considering the Andy and Lusi, we are looking at the Iberian breeds. And yes, all have their differences. In general, for an AA friendly mind, I’d look to the Friesian and the Andalusian. Again, very DIFFERENT horses, but with a similarity in the lack of fight, the people oriented personality.
So yes, I understand what is-V is saying, but also understand khall’s point.
Still not sure whether this experiment will work, but it is interesting, and I will enjoy watching the results of these breedings! I haven’t seen a lot of Iberian/WB crosses, but I HAVE seen several Andalusian/TB crosses, and they tended to be SUPER HOT…
