Caught some interesting news this AM:
http://www.eurodressage.com/2018/02/20/oldenburg-society-approves-first-lusitano-stallion
Congrats… Curious to see if his 20-mare limit will be filled… And with whom…
That’s pretty cool! Thanks for sharing.
Here’s some video which shows his basic gaits as a young (6yo) horse. I’m not very into the Spanish horses, but I can see the appeal of this guy. I wouldn’t ever use him myself, but I would certainly be curious to see his foals from WB mares.
http://www.tribunalusitana.com.br/programas/tribuna-equestre/equestre-24
I’m curious as to GOV’s thinking here (not in a negative way, just wondering what they are thinking in a long term breeding goal)…
I have crossed Friesians to WBs for years - and gotten some really lovely babies. The Baroque brain is just so DIFFERENT from the WB, and that was always my goal, to create a more athletic horse, but to try to preserve some of that Baroque personality. Until you’ve actually worked with Baroque horses, it is hard to explain, but they are more forgiving, more people oriented, less inclined to fight and more inclined to work. And in most of the F1 crosses, that is exactly what I got. But once I diluted down to 25%, or started doing F2 crosses, the results were a bit more Warmblood like - I loss the Baroque Brain Benefit (still got some really nice, athletic horses, and with good bone and lovely necks, and you could see some of the Baroque influence, but they were more WB like in their temperaments). Of course, that was with Friesians, not Iberian horses, but I still think some of that would apply.
So I’m curious as to what the goal would be of such a cross? I’m guessing, with only ONE stallion approved, at this point, there would only be F1 results, but does GOV have a longer term breeding goal?
I have not ridden any Lusitanos, but have ridden Andalusians, and in general, they are, well very different from the WBs and Friesians, who both tend to be pretty elastic (in different ways). But they have some similarities to the Friesians in their kindness. I would assume the Lusis are similar.
Anyway, interesting, and watching, and wondering…
Long term, I think they are trying to fix two problems that I’m seeing in a lot of WB registries: lack of stallions with defined amateur temperament, and lack of stallions with stellar conformation and soundness.
Perhaps they’ve finally recognized that their biggest market is the amateur market… and many amateurs are being overhorsed by all of these WBs that are bred for the sale and not for actual riding potential.
The way the WB has diverged now as a breed, I don’t think there is a huge amount of genetic variety - and a lot of top performing stallions have the movement to really blow people away, but either lack true sitting capability or they are just too high octane. That’s probably the first part of the problem, looking forward - is that we’ve created a surplus of very talented individuals but the brain has been left behind in favor for their extreme athleticism.
The other part of that is at some point, we’re going to push the horse past its morphological ability for soundness - I think some have reached that point. We have these incredibly elastic, supple animals that have extraordinary movement… and they’re chronically unsound. Have we exceeded their body’s ability to stay sound with efficient movement? Has the WB’s way of going become so inefficient and mainstream that we’re now seeing the results of pushing a horse’s body past what it would have naturally produced? There is not much moderation in these practices to breed towards more and more extravagant - and at some point someone has to address the writing on the wall which is the suspicion that this elasticity is actually a very subtle neurological issue.
And neurological issues are hardly news to most WB breeders, who are aware certain families have very bad cervical issues…
My own personal observation having watched many up and coming stallions is that we need some more compact blood and better sitting ability. We also need a kick in the pants with regards to soundness. A Lusitano could certainly offer that. A Lusitano could, in theory, fix some of the problematic hind leg conformation seen in top stallions and their sons today - SH and F line come to mind immediately, having the propensity to have big bodies on thin legs and small hooves, and often accompanied by very flat, straight hocks. Not a recipe for soundness.
Some things I’ve noticed in the last fifteen or so years is that the WB as a whole is diverging to a longer-lined, bigger framed individual - anyone with an eye can see that. The croups are getting weaker and weaker, the loin connection longer and longer, hocks straighter, pasterns softer… and I’m not sure the “WB brain” is a compliment anymore. I’ve not ridden many WBs with real amateur friendly temperaments.
Just as an example to see where the breeding trend is heading, take a look at the stallion Florestan. Some minor flaws in conformation but no one can argue he doesn’t have talent. Certainly a superstar stallion that has left his mark in the breeding shed. His grandson Fuerstenball is beyond trendy. How many top mares were bred to him because of how trendy he is? Look at his conformation. For that note WHEN is someone going to come out, from these registries, and address the fact that Florestan and Fuerstenball BOTH have offspring that have DSLD/ESPA? Seems something that a breeder ought to know before considering either. For that matter, look at Florestan’s pasterns… and Fuerstenballs… Soft as butter.
Sandro Hit is another - and these stallions are having sons that are very trendy to breed to since breeders are breeding for the sales and breed to what’s hot… only issue with that is that “what’s hot” now based on the performance testings doesn’t mean “what’s sound” 10 years from now. We also have had certain stallions just proliferate the registries, making it harder and harder to maintain genetic diversity. More and more horses that are long-lined with weak conformation. More and more breeders wising up and breeding for the sales because right now, that’s where the money is.
Seems to me it’s a bicameral problem. Lack of soundness (due to conformation), lack of brains, very unrewarding to breed for amateur market while very rewarding to breed for the sales…
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Halt, very interesting, and exactly what I’ve been saying for a decade now 
I am curious to see if the WB registries are actually entertaining those thoughts…
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Why I bred my Han/TB mare to a Lusitano (brains!) and now have a lovely buckskin filly!!
I disagree with the remarks on hind leg improvement with the baroque Luso or Andi, they IMO very often have problematic hind leg conformation and can be weak in the loin. I would agree with the improvement in brain why to do the cross.
I have bred, raised and ridden WBs since 1989 and I am over them! They are challenging temperamentally and often not user friendly. The Luso and Andi have been bred for centuries for their work ethic and bravery. I often am not excited about some of the baroque movement, but man their temperament more than make up for it. I spent a week in Spain riding Andi and would have brought one or two home in a heart beat!!
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I really like him, he is stunningly beautiful, a work horse, great gaits and balance. I look at him in his video and I see a horse with width and substance, soundness, ride ability, beautiful conformation. He has just enough pizzaz in his movement to catch the eye while not being hot, over flashy, and distracting. Congrats to his owners and breeders.
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The right Lusitano is definitely imperative. My apologies, I was not implying all Lusitanos are an improvement over WBs. I’ve seen a few Lusitanos with strong loins and a good fundament. A few without. Certainly the right stallion is important.
Do you have pictures of your filly? I’d love to see.
Halt here is my filly last year saying Hi to one of her friends.
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I liked him much better at 6 than I did in this video, actually. Way too much knee for me.
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That is probably manufactured by careful conditioning and training. I would take how he moves at six as a good indicator of his natural movement.
Khall, your filly has a very kind eye. How does she move?
Halt I really like her movement. Definitely a mix of the WB and Luso. More sweeping stride than most Luso/Andi but still has some knee action which I do not mind at all. Who knows what she will end up moving like with training, I would be ok if she moved like this guy!
I am not as big of a WB fan as I used to be after so many years of them. There are definitely some baroque horses whose movement I prefer over others. I also think it is training though, you just do not train them like a WB. If you push them too fast they get choppy, I don’t like the choppy gaits.
See, Totilas had too much knee for me as well. I find it ironic that one of dressage’s most infamous “moves” is the piaffe and yet people complain about a horse in the dressage arena having “too much knee”.
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Don’t see what that has to do with anything. The chief complaint since Totilas was on the scene is horses that are all front end and it doesn’t match the back end. That’s exactly what is being discussed here. A horse doesn’t have to look like a park harness horse to be good at dressage.
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So ironic. I’ve been training and starting mostly warmbloods for well over a decade. Hands down the most difficult horses I’ve had in training were a series of baroques and baroque crosses. I’ve got a barn full of amateur friendly wb’s.
Are there bloodlines out there that are difficult? Of course. But there are plenty that are amateur friendly.
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I really have to disagree on Lusitanos being amateur friendly horses. Through history they were developed very differently from the calmer PRE/Andalusians or the heavier friesians. They are really in a league of their own. They really don’t have the same temperament as Spanish horses .
While PRE horses were breed through centuries to be the horses of kings and were a favourite of the monarchies around Europe, the Lusitano was developed as a working horse, specially for bullfighting.
The nature of horses is to run away from any danger and the Lusitano was developed for centuries to go against that instinct and attack. Only in recent years (20 years more or less) it has been developed as a sport horse, and thanks to it’s athletic ability and endurance the breed has found success in the dressage ring. A perfect example of this is Rubí, who is the first Lusitano stallion to enter the top 50 list of dressage stallions of the WBFSH and has the best piaffe I have ever
seen.
I am a dressage rider and I have currently two personal horses. A warmblood stallion with lovely movements and who is the sweetest, most well behaved stallion I have known but needs the rider to really push him with the leg and lacks a bit of reaction for my taste. The other is an approved Lusitano stallion who has a really hot temperament, quick reactions and that tests my abilities every day. However, the lusitano is my top horse 
But well, it is also true that there can be more difficult horses or more amateur horses in any breed!
I have worked with Lusitanos for years and the wonderful thing about them is that once they love you and respect you, they really try their hearts out for you and would do anything for you.
I would really think the interest on Dragao das Figueiras comes from his exceptional ability to collect. He is really an impressive stallion. He is the only stallion to obtain the “Reccomended stallion with six stars” with the APSL. I do believe warmbloods can benefit from the conformation of this horses as their shorter backs and necks and powerful croup really favour the collected movements.
And to finish, I leave a lovely quote from one of Portugal’s top breeders:
“The Lusitano horse has a very hot blood. Unfortunately abroad, people think the lusitano horse is only a gentle horse who anyone can ride. The first Lusitanos that were sold abroad from Portugal were like that and then the writers described the Lusitanos as gentle, nice boys but they are not that, it’s a horse of a very hot blood, the hottest in the world. In Lusitano breeding we have to go slowly. I think we have improved and we have an extraordinary horse and I like riding Lusitanos but I also like riding warmbloods, my personal horse is a warmblood, he has good temperament and moves beautifully.
We Portuguese, if we want to create a Lusitano horse with international projection, we have to eliminate this idea of people, the idea of the horse that everyone can ride. If the breeders want a Lusitano for sport, they have to promote internationally the Lusitano as an athlete, with athletic training, not as a domestic pet to walk around the garden.”
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I think that’s a cop-out. There is no reason a horse can’t be international quality AND good minded. There’s a big difference between “strolling around the garden” and being overly sensitive and spooky.
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I’ve only worked with a handful of Lusitano’s, and have more experience with the PRE breed. I’d say that both can be “hotter” but I think it is more common to come across a hot horse in the Lusitano breed. These horses, or even my own, when they get hot it’s different to me. They are quite intelligent and sensitive. I cannot say that about my warmblood, but he is 1 of 1. The Spanish may breed for a more easy going temperament and are very strict with their handling and training.
I think it is quite exciting to see a Lusitano approved. I have been curious about WB x Iberian for a while, but haven’t pulled the trigger myself.
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