Older Horse and Cud Chewing

[PeteyPie]

My 27-year-old Thoroughbred mare has started doing something that concerns me and I’m hoping for some insight.

Of course she’s not really chewing or producing cud but I put that in the title because that’s what it reminds me of. I’ve caught her twice now standing away from the feed tub (maybe 30’ or 40’ away) and chewing. There is nothing visible that she could be chewing on in her dry lot. The fences are welded pipe with v-wire. The first time I noticed it but didn’t pay much attention. The second time I watched her for over five minutes. What is going on?

She had her teeth checked about three months ago and the vet said they were not only fine but really in good shape; no points, even wear, no sign of any problems. I’ve had her since 2011 and she’s always had even wear, never had to have her teeth floated.

She does not quid. She eats her senior feed neatly and doesn’t drop anything to any noticeable degree. She eats her alfalfa well and has a good appetite.

She has never choked as far as I am aware. I assume that would manifest itself with coughing and noticeable efforts to expel food?

I have been supplementing her (and her companion) vitamin E levels (5,000 units per day) since her last vet visit. She was dragging her toes and stepping on herself behind and the vet diagnosed her with a neuromuscular disorder possibly caused by insufficient vitamin E, which I believe has been borne out by a marked improvement in her movement and hind-end coordination. The other day she and her companion were galloping around and bucking and she did a complete bucking bronco imitation, kicking up both hind legs high; it did my heart good and made me really feel ashamed that I had not been supplementing her with vitamin E earlier. I had ignorantly assumed that a couple of pounds of senior feed and a mineral block would provide necessary trace vitamins and minerals. Anyway, enough of true confessions.

Do any of you have any advice or experience with this and anything I should be looking for? I’m not sure it’s worth calling a vet for this because she seems to be doing fine in all other ways, although I will be wanting him out pretty soon to check her vitamin levels.

[Simkie]

Did the vet use a speculum to check the mouth? No need to float in 9 years is pretty unusual. Do you use a vet dental specialist?

I’ve seen horses yawn and chew in response to stress–like in “I’m impatient and want to come in!” or “hello, it’s feeding time, hurry up” situations. Or in response to chronic pain, like ulcers or musculoskeletal stuff. Any chance anything like that is going on?

Unless you’re 100% confident that the vet got a very good look in her mouth, though, I’d really start there, with a vet who specializes specifically in dentistry.

[PeteyPie]

Simkie, thank you for your response. The vet did not use a speculum. He looked in her mouth and felt all of her back teeth with his hand. He did the same with my other mare and said that her teeth were starting to get points (although they are clearly not interfering with her eating as she is a touch overweight) and we should have them floated at the next visit. That technique sounds a little crude, but I really respect this vet who is very well thought of and always up on the latest medical news. Having said that, if I don’t figure this out, I will look into a specialist. It is unusual that her teeth wear so well. She is the only one of my horses who has not needed a float.

Your description of the stress response actually sounds like it is right on the money. My horses were wasting so much hay that I have had the barn worker cut back. I’m trying to get the right amount so that there is not so much waste between feedings and both times this happened, the hay tubs were empty except for a few of the picked over stems, and the horses were waiting for their dinner.

I like them to have hay available all the time. For a while there, I noticed that the 40-gallon tub would be 1/4 full of hay, not counting what had been dragged out onto the ground, and the barn worker would dump more in there at the next feeding and not take into account what was left. So I’m trying tweak that situation. Maybe she was just hungry and anxious for her meal.

@Simkie

Did the vet use a speculum to check the mouth? No need to float in 9 years is pretty unusual. Do you use a vet dental specialist?

I’ve seen horses yawn and chew in response to stress–like in “I’m impatient and want to come in!” or “hello, it’s feeding time, hurry up” situations. Or in response to chronic pain, like ulcers or musculoskeletal stuff. Any chance anything like that is going on?

Unless you’re 100% confident that the vet got a very good look in her mouth, though, I’d really start there, with a vet who specializes specifically in dentistry.

[Simkie]

@PeteyPie

The vet did not use a speculum. He looked in her mouth and felt all of her back teeth with his hand.

Has she ever had an exam with a speculum?

I have a mare who’s just a few years younger than yours–23 next year–and if she were examined without a speculum, you’d think she was fine, too. But you get the speculum in there, and it’s very, very clear that she’s rampy and pointy at the veeeeeery back of the mouth, and that’s an area that you just really cannot address without a speculum. I’ve had a few different dental specialist vets (as we’ve moved across the country) pronounce her just fine with a basic exam, only to really walk that back once they get the speculum in.

Hopefully it’s just the hay! But definitely do consider having a dental specialist out for a full exam, even if it’s just a looksee

[PeteyPie]

Sorry for the additional post. I didn’t want to make that other reply even more long-winded.

The chronic pain is an issue I will watch for. She is 27 and starting to show her age.

[PeteyPie]

I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t recall if she has had a speculum used during a dental exam. She must have; the vet usually uses a speculum for exams, and of course, he uses it when he is floating the teeth, but I actually don’t remember if she has ever been examined that way. I will specifically request that on her next check.

Do you have any advice about how to find a good dental specialist? I’ve heard scary things about some who seem great but then all sorts of scandalous malpractice comes out over the years about over-grinding teeth to the point of causing damage, or gouging clients. I’m a little leery.

Actually, that would make a good thread: How to Evaluate a Vet or a Vet Specialist.

[Simkie]

@PeteyPie

Do you have any advice about how to find a good dental specialist? I’ve heard scary things about some who seem great but then all sorts of scandalous malpractice comes out over the years about over-grinding teeth to the point of causing damage, or gouging clients.

Absolutely! There are definitely some terrible stories out there.

I’ve had the best luck asking the one I’m using for a recommendation for a vet dentist where I’m going, but that won’t work for you since you’re starting fresh! If you can share your general area (state?) here, I’m sure we can come up with some possibilities for you. Or if you’re in CO, UT, MN, ND, WI, NY or CT, I might be able to hook you up with a recommendation of someone I’ve used before

[PeteyPie]

I’m in Southern California in Riverside County.

[Simkie]

I’ve never lived on that coast, but I’m sure that someone around here can help

Oh! It does look like UCD does have a dentistry service, which might be a place to check for a referral?

Equine Dentistry and Oral Surgery Service

And I know zilch about this guy, but he does come up in a search. This is the kind of person I look for–a vet who specializes in dentistry. Might be worth asking around about him.

Mojave River Equine Veterinary Services - Southern California & Arizona

Here is another one that google offers:

http://www.richdent.com/bio.html

[JB]

I haven’t met a vet, or anyone actually, who can properly feel all the rear molars without a speculum.

When you saw the vet look in her mouth and "feel’ all her back teeth, was she standing quietly, jaw fully open? Or, as nearly every horse does, was she trying to chew and get her tongue away from being held? Assuming the latter, no, I highly doubt he could feel her back teeth, not well anyway, he’d have had his fingers mashed.

So that’s where I’d start.

BUT - do you have video? Was she chewing like she had food in her mouth? Or was she more grinding her teeth?

[PeteyPie]

@JB

I haven’t met a vet, or anyone actually, who can properly feel all the rear molars without a speculum.

When you saw the vet look in her mouth and "feel’ all her back teeth, was she standing quietly, jaw fully open? Or, as nearly every horse does, was she trying to chew and get her tongue away from being held? Assuming the latter, no, I highly doubt he could feel her back teeth, not well anyway, he’d have had his fingers mashed.

So that’s where I’d start.

BUT - do you have video? Was she chewing like she had food in her mouth? Or was she more grinding her teeth?

Hmm, I’ll watch for it again. It was as if she still had some hay in her mouth. If you didn’t notice that there was no hay nearby you would think she was eating. It’s funny how difficult it is to describe. Maybe she was grinding her teeth.

With the vet visit, it was as you would expect from a cursory exam without a speculum. She held her mouth open in reaction to his hand being in there but definitely didn’t just hold still with her mouth wide open and remain still; there was some chewing action. I do remember thinking I would not want to stick my fingers back that far between any horse’s teeth.

[NancyM]

Can have a giant point on the far side of the last molar, driving down into the opposite jaw. You can’t find that by feeling with a hand. Good luck solving the issue.

[Posting_Trot]

I’ll chime in here and say that I also find it hard to believe that a horse might never need their teeth floated in nearly 10 years. I’d definitely find a dental specialist to come out and look at her mouth.

It’s also possible that just in the past couple of weeks she cracked a tooth on something and it’s bothering her, or she’s developed some kind of abscess in the gums. A dental specialist could help with those potential problems as well.

[PeteyPie]

Thank you all for the ideas. I will look for a reputable equine dentist.

[PeteyPie]

I called a local trainer and got a recommendation for Joe Yasinosky, an equine dentist but not a vet, and made an appointment. Does anyone have any input on Yasinosky? He practices in Arizona, California, and I believe, Texas.

[SuzieQNutter]

Nope.

Horse should have their teeth done once a year at least. Find a different person, ask in this forum for recommendations in your area.

Oh I see you have already asked. Good on you for taking action.

[Simkie]

@PeteyPie

I called a local trainer and got a recommendation for Joe Yasinosky, an equine dentist but not a vet, and made an appointment. Does anyone have any input on Yasinosky? He practices in Arizona, California, and I believe, Texas.

Dentists that are not vets cannot legally sedate. Sedation really is pretty required to check the back of the mouth, for nearly all horses.

So non vet dentist will either sedate illegally, or they don’t sedate at all. Both are pretty bad.

A veterinary dentist also has additional tools available, like dental radiographs. And they have a much better toolbox in the case of an adverse reaction, like to sedation.

I’d personally never use a non vet dentist. You’ll have to decide your own level of comfort with that.

(There might also be a law in CA that ONLY vets can legally perform any dental work at all…? I thought I saw something about that when I was Googling around. Worth investigation! Different states have different rules about that.)

eta: a quick Google turns up an arrest record and a lawsuit related to fraud and negligence that led to the death of a horse. It looks like he may have previously been a vet but isn’t anymore…? That’s a lot of concerning stuff on page 1 of a Google search

[PeteyPie]

Thanks. I sort of jumped the gun and was feeling a little tentative about it so I cancelled after reading your cautionary post. I value your opinion.

I’m going to take a few days to research this. I didn’t see her doing the chewing thing yesterday but she was eating so I’ll have to keep an eye on her in the meantime.

[Simkie]

Sounds like a good plan! I’m sorry to be so down on the guy you turned up But I bet there’s a really great vet dentist out there for you and your horse!

[stargzng386]

Find the largest vet practice in your area with multiple vets and call them and ask which one of their vets specialized in dentistry. I actually had a horse develop open ulcers from a vet who floated his teeth yearly but missed points in the back. I used a different vet at the practice who did more dentistry work in college and had zero issues. So one vet did his vaccines in spring the other specialist did fall with his float.