So, I’m going to make this as short as possible. I have a very nice horse. Schools really well at home and trail rides awesome. He has Kissing Spine and had the surgery 9 mths ago. He has come back really, really well. I am attempting to get him back to the same hunter shows he went to before his lengthy amount of time off (2 years) to resolve his ailments. He is healthy and sound. Prior to the surgery, he had an issue with noise at 2 venues. One was completely unmanagable (related to PA) and the other one we worked around but he performed well. Two weeks ago we went to this venue and he had a moderate meltdown about the water truck idling (he was schooling in indoor ring). Next morning he was colicking so he went to the clinic instead of showing (he was dramatic, colic was minor). So we decided this time he would just go back and forth from home and sleep outside at night. Walked him in one of the indoor warm ups and pretty much fine. Trotted a little and then he just threw a bucking fit for nothing (as someone said, wha was that about). Acted the fool until he went outside. Schooled perfectly in the outdoor ring. There were other horses acting up and he took no notice. Took him back to covered barn and he walked in fine. Walked into the warm up area to see what would happen and he threw a fit. Walked outside and he walked around the ring like a lesson horse. Got off outside and walked him back into the barn - he offered a small amount of resistance but nothing violent and went quietly to his stall. Got a bath and walked to and from the wash area with no issue. He had lunch and I figured before I left I would test the boundries of where he would behave in the indoor barn. Walked perfectly all the way to the indoor warm up ring and then threw the same exact temper tantrum (rearing, kicking, bucking, striking) on the lead that he does when he is on stall rest and hand walking and doesn’t want to go back in the barn. I don’t know what he is objecting to anymore. At first we thought it was noise but there have been no triggers this week. He used to show 3’ - we are just doing 2’3, 2’6 to get us both going again. He is reasonably fit, has no pain (eval by vet 10 days ago) and has been a good performer in the past (even with a sore back).
Is it pain memory or just bad manners? I am going to give some ACE in the AM and school him in the indoor before any one else is riding - this just can’t go on. I am getting the feeling that this is brat behavior and I do not want him to get the upper hand.
I have a plan for warm up that puts no one else at risk and he will be going into the ring with no warm up jumps. Poor him!
Any thoughts on training solutions or ideas as to cause welcome.
What you are describing isn’t “brat behavior”. It is fear or pain or something else that’s very real. Just because you don’t know what it is doesn’t make it about him “getting the upper hand”, it just means you don’t know what it is. You can try desensitizing carefully but leave anthropomorphizing out it- you are doing nobody any favors that way.
p.s. last time I had a horse throw a “bad mannered fit” in an arena, it collapsed 3 days later in exactly the spot he freaked out in.
I don’t know what has happened to him in the arena, but what you ate doing at the moment is rewarding him for doing it. He shouldn’t leave the arena until he is behaving.
That said always stay safe. For both of you.
[QUOTE=scruffy the cat;8251663]
What you are describing isn’t “brat behavior”. It is fear or pain or something else that’s very real. Just because you don’t know what it is doesn’t make it about him “getting the upper hand”, it just means you don’t know what it is. You can try desensitizing carefully but leave anthropomorphizing out it- you are doing nobody any favors that way.
p.s. last time I had a horse throw a “bad mannered fit” in an arena, it collapsed 3 days later in exactly the spot he freaked out in.[/QUOTE]
Interesting because some people would say you are the one being anthropomorphic.
sometimes horses seem to associate physical discomfort with a physical thing. Is it possible that after surgery he then developed ulcers? Or has nerve pain from the surgery?
I agree though, that you need to find a way to have him calm down before allowing him to leave the situation or you will be creating a phobic response.
I know you said the vet says he has no pain, but there really isn’t a test for pain.
I don’t take offense to any comments - scruffy is entitled. I have dealt with this horse as if it is pain/fear for years and have addressed his pain issues thoroughly.
Susie - I 100% agree with you - safety of others is my primary concern thus not making a huge big deal out of it when other people are near by. It is definately a safety issue for all involved. Thus a little ACE in the morning and working on the ground and possibly undersaddle when no one else is likely to be in the ring. I do believe it is a respect issue and will address that at home.
He is so freaking good at home undersaddle that this behavior is a bit of a shock!
“Bucking fit for no reason” usually speaks of pain, especially if he is usually a solid citizen. A clean vet evaluation 10 days ago does not necessarily mean he is pain-free, it might just be that they missed something. Remember he is being ridden a bit harder at a show, plus trailering, plus stress of being away from home, unfamiliar stall, maybe brewing some new ulcers, etc.
In any case, agree with the above posters that the dangerous behavior needs to be firmly shut down ASAP.
His history suggests pain may be involved. That’s what I would investigate first.
Why is the pain only in the indoor pen?
OK. First of all understand that this horse receives the best of care from myself and his veterinary team. If he was having pain that was upsetting him this behavior would occur at home as well. He schooled, under saddle today with no issues when he was in the ring he likes to be in. Why does he not like the barn - I do not know. We have tossed around a variety of theories but nothing seems to fit as he he is happy and relaxed in his stall and the wash area. I would not discount pain memory. I’ll acknowledge that is a very real possibility. What I am looking for is experiences and possible training techniques. I feel like we have his physical needs addressed. He is on a daily ulcer program with added ulcer gard for shows and other stressful situations. He has misbehaved at this venue before but at the very same show done really well. I will be curious to see how it goes tomorrow.
If you have checked out possible pain, and have a good vet team working with you, then I suggest my patented Boredom Training Technique.
Wherever the horse is acting up, you and he must spend enough time in that place to be mutually and terribly bored. You must walk around, back up, stand, lead, yawn, and generally take the idea of “escape!” away from the horse while keeping something going on, but not enough to be a tax on his attention. The horse is processing the environment, and has highly developed side vision and sense of smell. Whatever he is experiencing you stay out of it and be consistent, calm, steady, bored.
This can take hours. Bring water or coffee, and your phone. Stop him to check your Facebook etc. Key is not to let the horse leave the space until he is manifestly bored out of his mind and non-reactive.
I’ve done this at shows, on grounds, in the arenas in dark of night, etc. It worked for me.
I suspect you have heard that thoughts create, could you be carrying the old experience when you enter the ring., well he may do this, or last time he did this here…, watch your own thought projections during these training rides. Ride forward with confidence, like nothing is going on… The same feeling in the outdoor ring… I.e. Don’t think I will now test the indoor, just go do it…
Sorry, I know it’s a COTH go-to, but consistent misbehavior in only one specific place isn’t pain-related. It is probably fear of something as yet undetermined. Does he wear ear plugs? Sound echoes differently indoors. I would try era plugs if he doesn’t currently wear them
If he is wearing them, then go with your morning plan (actually, go with that anyway) and then boredom therapy. Worried about others? Smart, so stand there in a halter for an hour, then tacked for an hour, then sit on him for an hour…ad infinitum.
Is there possibly an electric/electronic security system/electric fence system humming along near any of the doors you entered through? That sent one of mine through the roof. I finally had to ask someone to shut it off so we could get through the gate. Even then, he was jumpy as a cat. Their hearing is much more sensitive than ours is. There may be something going on in that area you can’t hear, but he can. Ask event management or a grounds person about it.
Thank you for these thoughtful responses. I actually like the Boredom idea. I really do. I am going to do this at the show he really hates - I work at this current show so when I am not riding I am supposed to be working! Also it is awfully close quarters and if he throws a fit I do not want him to kick anyone. Our #1 theory is a sound or vibration he doesn’t like. Ear plugs make no difference. He was very naughty when we got home tonight (I do not leave him unattended at the venue we are at this weekend) despite 30 minutes of ground work he appeared to be paying attention to. It is going to be a long road but I am going to put in the time and take him as many safe places as I can to help him get over this. Of course I am firming up on my behavior around him and treating him like a 1300 lb horse instead of a cat. Yes I am the guilty party that has lead to this nightmare! Thank ou again for the ideas.
I think you are approaching this the right way. I just get twitchy when people start talking about “brat behavior”. Little kids, horses, dogs, etc. do well when they can. They’re usually not sophisticated enough to devise elaborate plans to misbehave. Ponies and cats, of course, are the exception to this theory. 
Don’t know what roseymare is referring to so I’ll leave that alone. I do think you are heading off in the right direction now that you are treating this at face value. Trust your instincts.
It would be very unusual for pain to go away in the outside pen and return again in the inside pen.
There is something else going on. He needs to come to understand that the indoor arena will not go away nor will it hurt him. Slow and steady is the way.
If you categorize bratty behavior as thought out elaborate plans I understand your original post scruffy. I don’t particularly define it that way though.
My theory with back problems is that tense high headed behavior actually causes pain, and the horse thinks the thing that scared him, has actually hurt him. You can go to within a distance that the horse starts to be tense, wait until he relaxes, go a bit closer, wait, and so on,until he’s OK. That avoids the flooding of going straight there and the subsequent flight behavior that he WILL remember and repeat.
I had something similar happen to one of my boys. He was perfect at home. We took him to pony club and he started creating in the float before we even stopped the ute.
"You cannot tire out an adrenalized thouroughbred and that is what I had. He did everything. He backed, bucked, reared. You name it. Eventually I got on him and as long as his head was over Pepper’s rump he would stand. We could leave Pepper and come back, but hubby could not take Pepper and do anything.
The only comment from the instructor was Have you ever ridden this horse before? Which is pretty demoralizing.
The next day, at home, I was in canter down the hill when suddenly the ground was wet. I though uh oh and I just said walk, which he immediately did a canter walk transition which is how well he was going at home.
The next time we went to ponyclub he was lame. So I took him but just held him. As someone above said, by the end of the day he was totally bored and the problem was over.
I had one that had no barn issues, but was always a little nutty in indoor arenas. Had him for 24 years and he never performed in an indoor the way he performed outside. He was also nutty at sunset (not feed related). We always thought it was vision related, and as he aged his vision definitely deteriorated so we were probably right.
I’d start with ear plugs but then consider vision. You can always test it by taking him to other indoors with similar lighting/shadows.
