On Holes in Training

[phoenixrises]

So I’ve, like many of you, been following the recent choices of upper level riders to bit up rather than fix a hole. And I’ve honestly been a bit smug saying I would never do that! Until my horse punted me on Thursday. Bad.

I’m okay but it was from luck not skill. I too have a pretty young horse, who is talented particularly in responding intuitively to leg and seat for lateral movement and upward transitions. BUT she pretty much ignores my downward seat and core without a crap ton of hand to go with it.

For close to a year I’ve let her get away with it. In my quest to “learn” the next step, push get up to the next level I decided her reacting to my downward aids was just not that important.

I’ve been reading Michael Schaffer’s Right From the Start where he talks about if you run into a problem doing X figure out which of your basics is causing that. It can always be fixed there.

Well I somehow never really taught my mare whoa. For the last few days we have been re learning (or maybe really learning it the first time). Today it clicked all three gates I got whoa! And let me tell you everything else was better too.

It seems so basic, and while it takes time it reaps huge results. Have you had a realization that you’ve allowed a hole to cause issues “up stream”? What basic was missing, how’d you fix that issue? How long did it take to get bad enough for you to notice? How long did it take you to “fix”?

Since we seem to think this is a basic horsemanship issue I’d love to have some real life examples of how you dealt with holes.

[skipollo]

My young horse came to me with minimal jumping experience. He was sent over a few Xs in the ring and logs in the field (including a giant stack of railroad ties which IMO a 4yo baby TB shouldn’t be jumping…) for his sale video but that’s it. He wasn’t jumpable when I bought him (he was a hot mess.)

His jump training started well, just trotting little Xs and verticals. All was going well, staying quiet and cantering away nicely (and sometimes in a straight line!)

Well his rusty dope of a mother (read: me) caught him in the mouth one too many times over these little jumps, and he started giraffe necking and chest-bolting over every single jump, every ground pole, anything I pointed him at. It was entirely my fault.

It took an entire winter off and then two months of walking groundpoles and Xs on the buckle to get him to not be terrified of me grabbing him in the mouth anymore. You’d never know it now, watching him jump. He’s eons better than he used to be (just like me). I still make a point to grab mane if I’m even the slightest bit unsure of a distance or my balance. I would much rather grab mane and gather ourselves up after the jump than catch him in the mouth.

He’s a saintly horse for tolerating me.

[Twistedpony]

Mine is more of a story about a hole in my training: I own (and have ridden for over 2 years) an older, trained horse–packer through Novice and easy ride at Training. Horse also has Prelim mileage and was brought along well and correctly. When I first started riding him he was just done with his Prelim days and so was “tuned up”, so to speak. For a long time he remained very correct even if I didn’t necessarily ride 100% perfectly. But over time he figured out that, hey, I am not a Prelim rider (thanks, dude!) and started subtly taking advantage of me in ways I didn’t even feel. As we started working on more technical coursework, I had trouble with bending lines and lead changes and, lo and behold, the bugger has been laying on my left leg! What I thought was correct was only halfway correct, and ever since (past few months) I have made an effort to be aware of this in all areas. I keep finding places where he thinks he can sneak this move in (transitions, crossing diagonals, jumping) and I just work on consistently reinforcing the “move over” cue. It’s improved tremendously and again, it’s more a hole in my training than his.

[whbar158]

I rode a horse not too long ago that didn’t have a half halt, he had zero clue what it meant either ignored it completely or if I was firm just broke into a slower gait. Horse was just learning to jump and is probably one of the most easy going horses I have met, he has a natural steady pace and was western broke but still fairly green to moving off ones leg and flat work, he caught on quick but it was a funny feeling at first!

[BaroquePony]

I have a bad habit of letting my horses walk off before I’m completely in the saddle. I can take a horse that stands perfectly still when I first get him and I find myself already swinging into motion as I get on … I always work at fixing that habit.

I got into the habit through a lack of patience on my part.

[Gestalt]

I had a horse that didn’t get the half halt memo and because she was such a fun ride I didn’t insist she figure it out. Then I went to a GM clinic (watching not riding) and a rider had a horse like mine. After taking the rider over the coals he had her halt and back a few steps or just halt and stand a couple of seconds in every place instead of a half halt. It only took about ten minutes for the horse to get the idea of the half halt.

When I got home I tried that on my mare. Like night and day. She began listening to my whoa aid and lo and behold I got half halts and full square halts. Without getting my arms pulled out of the sockets and without a bit change. (but she did go in a Dr Bristle so it’s not like she was super soft and using a french link)

Like someone said in the other thread, the problem is with the rider, not the horse.

[BaroquePony]

It’s really easy to get a bit lazy up there. I write little cheat sheets for myself. And it gets really interesting when my own horse corrects me.

[OverandOnward]

When I first started riding my gelding (6 months before I bought him) he was 7 1/2 yo and knew a lot of things, but had never been taught to change leads. Not on the flat, not over fences - had just never been asked. No surprise, he was sometimes a bit iffy picking up the correct lead from a trot or walk, since he had never been required to read the chapter that said it mattered.

It wasn’t too hard to improve picking up the correct lead from a lower gait (although he still doesn’t stay 100% on that without occasional reminder practice).

But teaching him to change at the canter, and to change on ask over fences, proved surprisingly difficult, even with a quiet, calm, routine approach. The real problem was that he didn’t know he HAD two sides, didn’t know his legs were two on one side, two on the other.

I’ve schooled a number of young horses to change leads and to change when asked over fences. It was very easy to teach them, they would pick it up quickly. It is a wonderful thing when the rider can move a leg and get a fluid change at any canter+ pace.

But this horse, who was very athletic, smart and teachable, struggled to get the concept that had never been introduced when a horse is learning his athleticism for the first time. Before we started working on it, I’m not sure he ever switched in the air, even on his own. By the time I was truly able to address it consistently (had to get riding out from under the old trainer who didn’t think it mattered) he was 8 1/2 years old.

He wanted badly to understand what I was asking - it was almost a wistful feeling, how hard he was trying to grasp this concept. I could see and feel him trying to think about his legs over small crossrails when I was asking for the change.

He did learn to do his change in the air over small jumps when he wasn’t much distracted by the jumping effort. He seemed quite pleased with how smart he was to figure that out, since it involved a whole new way for him to think about all of his legs.

The experience really brought it home to me how critical it is to get a complete set of basics early on, when it is so much easier for the horse to internalize and make these basics part of his mental landscape.

[BaroquePony]

I agree with early on being easier if they are strong enough, especially if introduced in a methodical consistent manner adding a bit more each day or every other day or two. But some horse just gets things easier no matter what. And some things take more practice and consistently keeping that one thing in the mix as a reminder of it.

[Mango20]

When I bought my horse as a 5 year old, she had a serious hole in the longeing department. Apparently, her original owner chased her around a round pen with a whip, and the person I bought her from, who had her 6 months, didn’t bother to fix it. Well, I didn’t really bother either, for two years. This year, my son had to longe for his next Pony Club rating, so the little horse finally entered longeing boot camp!

[LookmaNohands]

Another couple of things that people tend not to think about is that your horse will halt better under saddle if he halts easily on the ground in just a halter. Practice walking forward and halting and then standing for a minute or two and then even jogging and walking and halting. No, it is not the same thing as what happens under saddle but it can make a big difference in some horses.

Also, using lots of praise. This is something you must incorporate into all of your other work. Just “giving” after a halt helps get the halt but adding a good amount of praise in what ever form useful in the moment can help the horse really understand that that was the right thing to do. I find they catch on faster and are more happy about it!

[LookmaNohands]

Another couple of things that people tend not to think about is that your horse will halt better under saddle if he halts easily on the ground in just a halter. Practice walking forward and halting and then standing for a minute or two and then even jogging and walking and halting. No, it is not the same thing as what happens under saddle but it can make a big difference in some horses.

Also, using lots of praise. This is something you must incorporate into all of your other work. Just “giving” after a halt helps get the halt but adding a good amount of praise in what ever form useful in the moment can help the horse really understand that that was the right thing to do. I find they catch on faster and are more happy about it!

[phoenixrises]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8384342]
Another couple of things that people tend not to think about is that your horse will halt better under saddle if he halts easily on the ground in just a halter. Practice walking forward and halting and then standing for a minute or two and then even jogging and walking and halting. No, it is not the same thing as what happens under saddle but it can make a big difference in some horses.

Also, using lots of praise. This is something you must incorporate into all of your other work. Just “giving” after a halt helps get the halt but adding a good amount of praise in what ever form useful in the moment can help the horse really understand that that was the right thing to do. I find they catch on faster and are more happy about it![/QUOTE]

Absolutely! Once I figured out the hole, I started with leading and halting and demanding she stay out of my space (which she’d started getting bad about). Then moved on to whoa on the longe. That took a couple days to get back 100%. THEN riding. She did at one point have these things, I just got lazy about enforcing them. My guess is that if I’m not super diligent, this hole will come back again and again because forward is more fun for her.

[JP60]

Not so much a hole, but when I started riding, well, when I bought my first horse and I wanted to start riding, my trainer insisted I start with ground work. I hated it because I really wanted to ride, but she insisted that if I cannot control a horse on the ground, calmly, how can I expect to have any control in the saddle. I needed to learn to be the alpha horse.

My horse was a full blood Trakehner, older, very wise, and knew I had no clue and she used every one of her tricks to get away with stuff, which I let her because I loved her so much and didn’t want to hurt her. We made almost no forward progress and riding was at times…um…scary since I was at her whim, not mine.

One day we were schooling at a show and my trainer, at this point getting frustrated with me said “take this mare for a walk and don’t come back till you get angry enough to get control.”. That mare, Mercedes, she started to lead me around, determine what grass and where, no standing still, no quiet, just pushing me around and finally I did snap. When she again pulled me away I made her halt then backed her up hard. A moment later she tests again, again I repeat. We did this a number of times until in an instance, she just dropped her head, started to graze and never tried to pull me away.

When I walked back my trainer immediately saw the change and then said, “now you got her basic respect, it’s time you start to earn more.”. Since that time on I have always included back to basic ground work, even with my current boy who I trust completely. Every now and then I lounge or lead, setting up obstacle courses to ensure he still listens and trusts me. It has done wonders for our riding.

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=phoenixrises;8384454]
Absolutely! Once I figured out the hole, I started with leading and halting and demanding she stay out of my space (which she’d started getting bad about). Then moved on to whoa on the longe. That took a couple days to get back 100%. THEN riding. She did at one point have these things, I just got lazy about enforcing them. My guess is that if I’m not super diligent, this hole will come back again and again because forward is more fun for her.[/QUOTE]

This is really intriguing. My guy, for whatever reason, has different interpretations of “whoa.” Sometimes, trying to get him to halt from a trot without a TON of hand (and I hate it) is nearly impossible… but he’s such a drama queen/TB that if I try to school him with a “hey, you, NOW,” he gets flustered and tense, and never seems to carry over to the next ride.

Same goes for the longe line – sometimes I have to ask him to whoa/walk about 30 times before he’s like, “Oh, you were talking to ME?!” I don’t know if it’s the excitement of being on the lunge (sometimes he responds right away, other times when he’s feeling fresh it’s a “Hey… yo… dude… HEY, BROWN HORSE!” type of repeated request), or he’s just a d*ck, but when I do correct him, it tends to exacerbate the situation as he just gets hotter and more “up.”

Don’t get me wrong, he’s not out of control or constantly blowing through my half halts, but his conformation (downhill-ish, long back) and past (racehorse) doesn’t lend him to have a naturally there, easy-to-acheive half-halt and whoa. It’s more of his overreaction/drama queen behavior to when I do give him a “no, you listen to me” correction, despite giving him praise and not overcorrecting to the point of fear.

[talkofthetown]

I had a pretty huge hole in my own training that started causing holes in my TB’s training. While I didn’t know it at the time, I had no idea what “outside rein” really felt like. I knew the concept, and I thought that I was executing it properly. It took a new, fresh set of eyes (new trainer) to watch me ride and call me on it. I was catch-riding a beautifully trained horse who KNEW exactly what it meant, so between trainer micro-managing my aids and the horse actually listening, I had a huge light bulb moment. I was able to correctly apply that to my TB, and the difference was almost immediate.

[Foxtrot_s]

JP - my daughter - at aged 8 - had one of my favorite ponies of all time, except she figured out that daughter could be ‘got’ if she pulled her head down to graze. After a bit, daughter figured out how to master this pony, and the respect was there (without harsh treatment from her - but by being as tough as necessary) and the pony went on to be brilliant. In the head.

[pologirl27]

What I love about training your own horse is that you can look 100% to yourself to fix problems! My mare in high school was a dressage horse who I trained to jump. I had a lot of issues with her in her 2nd year (moving up to 3feet) with her leaving long or rushing. My instructor was ok but more of a ‘fix the horse’ not ‘fix the rider’ type. One day I realized I was leaning my body at her early, duh! that’s why she was flinging herself at fences! Once I fixed that we got a whole lot better and we kicked butt at 3’3.

My current mare is trickier since she has a long history before me. She was produced in the pull-pull-pull-see distance-kick!! style of jumpers and tended to be very hot, very inconsistent in pace (really bottled up, then really fast and flat). I spent 3 years riding with a loop in the reins and hoping for the best over fences, which at 2’6 wasn’t really a dangerous option though I am sure we looked scary. Worked on figuring out bitting and getting her to accept a connection as well as possible on the flat. Dressage still isn’t a strength, but she can nicely canter around Novice SJ and XC.

[redalter]

[QUOTE=phoenixrises;8384454]
Absolutely! Once I figured out the hole, I started with leading and halting and demanding she stay out of my space (which she’d started getting bad about). Then moved on to whoa on the longe. That took a couple days to get back 100%. THEN riding. She did at one point have these things, I just got lazy about enforcing them. My guess is that if I’m not super diligent, this hole will come back again and again because forward is more fun for her.[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent point!

Just by doing walk, halt, back, step to the side basic ground exercises, and continuing with those throughout their lives, helps tremendously to establish and maintain the aids that then translate to under saddle.

I have always started those basic ones right from the first, even the day after they come off the track, for the ones I’ve done.

[enjoytheride]

My mare has a lack of go forward that has really put a halt to our training. She came with it previously installed and I have been able to make improvements but when push comes to shove she will put her feet down and refuse to go, and she will back up or go up if you push her. We have been trail riding to fix the issue and I spent two hours going 2.34 miles because she kept stopping on the trail and refusing to move down that scary path or past that scary log or away from the trailer, or over that ground pole. She jumped 10 out of 11 fences on our 2nd XC course ever in October and then reared straight up in the air causing me to do an emergency dismount because she decided she was done and wanted to go back to the barn. Scared the shit out of me. She has amazing gaits and jumps really really well but if I can’t get her to go forward what good is she? It’s one thing to make the horse go forward, it’s another to make them go forward knowing they are going to act like an ass and possibly hurt you.

I knew that she was quiet and had a good sense of humor about some things which is why I bought her, I also knew she had a little bit of “nope” in her that I thought would go away with training, but now that I’ve stepped up the level of what I want from her versus what her previous owner wanted from her the refusal to budge has reared (HA!) its ugly head. I’m either on the verge of a breakthrough or the verge of selling her to someone that expects less.