On the Vertical

[It_s_an_Onion]

Any tips for getting a horse to keep his head on the vertical?

We’ve tried a ton of things. And for whatever reason I just can’t get him to keep his head in the spot I want it.

After a while if I’m persistent about him keeping his head in one place, he will start yanking his head out of my hands, which of course turns out into a battle of wills between the two of us.

I have been working with his horse for almost 2 years, and he rarely keeps his head in the same spot, and if he does it’s because he’s tired from the “fight” we had to get him to keep it there.

He gets ridden Western and English, if that helps?

[karasha]

Invest in some dressage lessons.

A horse being “on the vertical” is so much more than his head being in one spot.

ETA: Ditch the draw reins, bungee cords (?!?!?!), and whatever other devices you’re using to try to force him into a specific head position. I would pull your arms out of your sockets too if all you focused on was trying to pull my head into a very specific position.

[misssarahannie]

Head position comes from the back end, not the hands. That generally explains the pull.

[It_s_an_Onion]

[QUOTE=misssarahannie;8103533]
Head position comes from the back end, not the hands. That generally explains the pull.[/QUOTE]

It’s not as much hand as it is trying to use leg to cue him down into the head set, and a bit of wiggle (we call it piano fingers) in the reins to kinda get it more subtle if he’s not responded to the leg cue?

[It_s_an_Onion]

[QUOTE=karasha;8103528]
Invest in some dressage lessons.

A horse being “on the vertical” is so much more than his head being in one spot.

ETA: Ditch the draw reins, bungee cords (?!?!?!), and whatever other devices you’re using to try to force him into a specific head position. I would pull your arms out of your sockets too if all you focused on was trying to pull my head into a very specific position.[/QUOTE]

Haven’t used any in a while, just starting to condition back up for summer, but can’t get this little thing. Never really had, this has been something we’ve worked on for a long time, and can’t really move on until he get’s head carriage down pat.

I try not to pull and I know when I get to handsy. But I try to keep a leg cue when it comes to getting him on the vertical, and hands if he doesn’t go down.

I know he knows what he’s supposed to do, because my trainer hops on him from time to time and he’ll fight with her about it for about 5 minutes before keeping his head in place. Maybe he’s being stubborn? Because he knows what’s being asked, because he’ll lower his head to where I want it at all gaits (it’s standing still and asking that he starts yanking at my arms) but after a few seconds of me not cueing his head down constantly, he lifts his head again.

Unfortunately, we have no dressage trainers in my area, but I might take him to college with me and they have a dressage trainer so maybe he might benefit if I take lessons with them?

[OnDeck]

Getting a horse on the vertical, ironically, has absolutely nothing to do with his head. You need to ride him from behind, keep him properly engaged, and keep a steady contact and he will naturally round up. You should never be thinking about “keeping his head in place”. You can’t do anything about where he keeps his head, he’ll win that fight every time. You can only change how he uses his hind end and he will change his head carriage.

[BostonHJ]

[QUOTE=Orion;8103582]
I know he knows what he’s supposed to do, because my trainer hops on him from time to time and he’ll fight with her about it for about 5 minutes before keeping his head in place. Maybe he’s being stubborn? [/QUOTE]

Or maybe your trainer provides more consistent/correct aids for him or she is better at faking them into a frame. Faking a frame is worse much worse than going in their natural carriage as it can do all sorts of wonky things to their backs and necks, not to mention make it very hard to teach them to go forward into the bridle.

You don’t need to wiggle your fingers. You need a soft, steady contact on the reins and plenty of leg. If you keep this up, eventually the horse softens and the second that happens, you give almost invisibly in your arms, and voila, 10,000 times later the horse knows what you are looking for. There are no good shortcuts. Good conformation and excellent training can make it happen faster, but even the best built horses need time to build up the muscle to be able to sustain it.

Dressage lessons with a good trainer would be good. Failing that, go to USEF Network and watch some of George Morris’s flatwork sessions. Getting a horse going over their back is not complicated but that doesn’t mean it is easy!

[Sister7]

[QUOTE=Orion;8103556]
It’s not as much hand as it is trying to use leg to cue him down into the head set, and a bit of wiggle (we call it piano fingers) in the reins to kinda get it more subtle if he’s not responded to the leg cue?[/QUOTE]

A horse ends up on the vertical from being ridden correctly and through his body from the back to the front. If you are thinking about a “head set” you are not in the right frame of mind. I grew up riding in a english/western pleasure barn so I do understand where you are coming from.

If you don’t have a dressage trainer in your area, you can look for any good sports horse trainer- hunter/jumper or eventing should still be able to help with the basics. If not, try to educate yourself by reading books on dressage.

[asterix]

Why would he be stubborn? Do you think he enjoys fighting with you?
He either does not understand what you are asking (and I agree that if you are thinking head “set” and “in one place” you are not asking in the right way) or finds it physically difficult.
It can be really slow and very frustrating to work through this but you have to have someone who can help you show him how to work over his back and into a steady but sympathetic contact, and then let him develop the muscles to do it consistently.

[comeoutandplay]

Does he balance and bend through his body on a 20 meter circle?

[merrygoround]

Head carriage is part of balance, is part of fitness. You are struggling to get “a look”. The look will come as you get him fitter, simply using your legs is only part of the equation.

As suggested before, get some dressage lessons, but don’t expect one or two lessons to solve your problem immediately.

PS, Most of the rider/trainers will tell you, the goal isn’t actually “on the vertical” but a tad bit in front of it.

[longtimelurker]

Stop thinking about his head - and start thinking about his hind-end and back. What does his hind end look like when your trainers on him? Is he tracking up? Is his back lifted or hollow? That should tell you whether your trainer is putting him in a “fake frame” or really getting him to use himself correctly.

[Dewey]

Agree with most of the replies you’ve gotten–several phrases you used in your posts set off alarm bells. Can’t recommend strongly enough that you start to work with a dressage trainer on a regular basis.

[NancyM]

Getting a “head set” is not an important goal of riding or training. When the horse is moving and carrying himself correctly, his head and neck naturally assume an attractive soft position without any effort from the rider in this respect. If someone is telling you that “head set” is an important goal, expand your circle of training input to include other coaches with different ideas about riding and training horses.

[talkofthetown]

Not going to repeat what everyone else has already told you, but wanted to share one thought. You might be making it worse by the fiddling with his reins. I used to ride a horse that had LOVELY self carriage if I didn’t touch the reins. Not a wiggle, not a half halt, do not TOUCH. If I forgot and tried to tell him how to carry himself, all semblance of frame and balance went out the window.

[purplnurpl]

if you have been working on this for 2 years then it’s not going to be easy.

most likely you lack feel. And especially if you are not used to riding with contact–
it’s a very difficult road.

the horse will need to be taught and then you’ll have to learn feel from him.

[CHT]

If your coach can do it, and you can’t, then your coach needs to better explain to you what they are doing. A good way to do this is to have your coach start the ride while you watch, and have then TELL you what they are doing the entire time. Then you hop on and hopefully you can capture the feel.

Just remember that if your horse is not USED to carrying himself this way, that he will need lots of stretchy breaks, otherwise he will get muscle cramps and get a negative association with going how you want him.

[It_s_an_Onion]

Thank you everyone for the help!

I think I understand what I need to do now

[Showbizz]

Problems in the face come from problems in the body. Fix the body and the head will take care of itself Good luck OP!

[Foxtrot_s]

Does he get a pro ride at all. Perhaps he needs to be shown the way and you can get some help too.

Also, until his strength and balance improves he will do that to rebalance himself.