One mare - 2 years - 2 foals - both die of salmonella

[system]

Looking for answers/avenues to explore.

Here’s the history. This mare’s first baby in 2008 was fine, no problems, still with us.

2009 foal died at 7 months (already weened) of Salmonella/Lawsonia. It is my understanding that the Lawsonia caused the ulcers that allowed the salmonella to penetrate the system including the heart. colic-like symptoms, obviously sick for about a week.

2011 foal died at 3 months, bred and born at a different farm than the first 2. the picture of health. not a mark on her when we found her, nothing in nose, no diarrhea. Necropsy concluded Salmonella was the cause. showed absolutely no signs leading up to death.

All 3 babies given plasma.

Should the mare get tested for salmonella? If she has it, should we stop breeding her? Can she simply carry it or will it eventually affect her? If she doesn’t have it, is this just a coincidence or do they maybe have an immune deficiency? Anyone ever experience anything like this?

[Prime_Time_Rider]

Yes, you should definitely have your mare tested for salmonella! We lost a foal at 9 days to salmonella, and the vet recommended we test the mare to see if she was carrying the bacteria. With a history of two foals lost to salmonella and the only common factor being the mare, I would test the mare without a doubt and if she does test positive stop breeding her until you’re certain that she no longer a carrier.

[amastrike]

I have absolutely no idea, but I’m so sorry for your losses. I hope you are able to find out what happened to cause this.

[TrueColours]

Years ago when we were at another farm and I was standing my first stallion a friend of mine wanted to send her mare in for live cover breeding. The problem was, she had ANOTHER mare that had been sent to the vet clinic for a minor surgical procedure, was spraying the walls with liquid, volatile manure the entire time she was there, it was tested and she was found to have salmonella and be a shedder. The surgical mare and the mare that was supposed to be coming to me, shared the same paddock at my friend’s farm

Not knowing anything, at the time, about how salmonella spread or acted, I started researching and making calls - to the University’s of Davis, Colorado, NB, Guelph, etc about getting this mare tested for salmonella before she came here

The only way to effectively test them, so I was told, is to put them in a stressful situation so they “shed” and collect that sample for testing. There is no point at all in testing that pile of manure they plopped out while at home, snoozing calmly with their friends under a tree. They dont shed while they are not stressed. So - you have to do something like take the baby away from a broodmare and while they are running around screaming and stressing out and liquid manure is coming out of them - THAT is what you collect and test. 5 days in a row, to determine if they are in fact a salmonella shedder and each test was $100.00 or $125.00 or something so there is NO way in Hell anyone is going to do that before sending a mare to your facility to be bred. It just wouldnt happen …

The colleges also went on to say that anywhere you are that horses are that could be in possibly stressful situations - show grounds, auctions, race track, that pile of manure you stepped in and then brought home on your boots, could be the cuplrit in infecting your farm. Same goes for your blacksmith, vet, feed guy, friend, client. Unless you ask them to step into a foot bath before coming onto your property, its the only way to ensure someone doesnt bring it onto your farm

Salmonella has something like 200+ strains so no way of vaccinating against them all either

It also lives forever in your soil. They have done tests at something like 6 inches, 12 inches, 20 inches down on ground that has gone through heat cycles and freezing cold cycles and the salmonella in the ground is still alive and well and flourishing. The only way to ensure that what is in the ground doesnt adversely affect what is ABOVE the ground, is to encase everything in concrete. So - that horse that lived at your place 20 years ago that was a salmonella shedder, and whose paddock your mare and foal were in, could be the culprit and not your mare. The foal may have been slightly debilitated and susceptible to something like salmonella but the mare was not and thats why the foal was affected and not the mare

I was also told that I needed to worry about things that I COULD control and take the necessary steps to control them and not sweat the stuff - like salmonella - that I couldnt control

If your mare is the one at fault, the only time she would shed the salmonella is probably during her stressful time - foaling - and as the baby is coming through the birth canal, if it comes into contact with any fecal matter yes it could inadvertently ingest some, so if this is a concern (and it does sound like it is a possibility) then you and the vet need to be aware of this before the birth

In closing, how many of us test for salmonella in any of our broodmares BEFORE buying or breeding them??? I know I dont, so I would say there are probably hundreds if not thousands of actively shedding mares out there in breedng programs

Good luck - I hope that you find the answers that you need to make your decision and so sorry for the loss of your foal …

[system]

Thank you all for the responses.

I guess that week after the baby died that we brought the mare in was a stressful enough time we could have tested her, if we had known. Is it possible the foals didn’t get some sort of immunity from the mare that was needed to fight off salmonella? It sounds almost impossible to totally rid the farm of it. Our vet mentioned that if we bred her in the future we would take “precautions” but I’m not sure what those would be.

There are 16 other foals on the ground at the farm, 3 in the same field as mine, and none were affected. I think we are going to put the mare back to work and maybe by next breeding season we will have more info.

[Hiddenacresmi]

I read this post and am curious, what is the protocal to “cure” if the mare is found to be a carrier of salmonella? How is it treated? What are the foal’s symptons?

[TrueColours]

There is no cure. They are a carrier for life and because there are so many strains, no vaccination either

The baby may well have ingested fecal matter during foaling or just after foaling while they were nosing around for the milk bar and thats why the other foals in the field woudnt have been affected at all. I believe the protocol would be to give fluids and plasma to the foal right after birth and start them on an antibiotic like metronazidole as the precaution, and not wait until symptoms start to show

I am so sorry once again …

[bloomingtonfarm]

True Colors does it imply that if you have one horse that is a carrier your soil will be contaminated for good. Does it means that all the horses grazing in that pasture will ingested the bacteria and become carrier themselves if not sick?

[TrueColours]

No. What it means is that if the horse is a carrier and it is stressed - you have just weaned a foal, you have just sold its pasture mate, and that horse is pacing up and down and screaming and dumping plops of wet manure, THAT manure is what can contaminate the soil and surrounding area

You then put a horse into that paddock that maybe just finished a long show and is running a bit of a temperature, it grazes around that plop of manure and ingests some contaminated matter and because it was a little debilitated to begin with, the salmonella bacteria takes hold in their system and THEY become a carrier. But the horse next to him that is grazing that wasnt at the show and is happy and healthy can graze in the same area and not pick it up as his immune system was in better shape than Horse #1

From how it was explained to me, that bacteria then lives in the soil forever - through heat and cold cycles, through various depths - you simply cant eradicate it

And I believe in the same way that you and I can be in a room with someone that has the flu - you may get it and I wont - simply because you were more susceptible for some reason than I was. Or - you were there when the sick person sneezed and I wasnt

Its one of those things I dont even think about anymore because you truly cannot control or eradicate it and you’d go crazy worrying about it. If you have your horse in a boarding barn, sure as shooting SOME horse that was in the stall before yours was a salmonella carrier. How do you know? How do you test for that? You dont and cant so you simply dont worry about it anymore and spraying the walls down with lysol will do diddley squat anyhow since it is going to be in the cracks and crevices that you cant reach

[back_in_the_saddle]

My mare got salmonella last year a few months after I bought her. Was she a carrier when I bought her? Who knows. Probably/probably not???

The way it was explained to me: Salmonella is EVERYWHERE in the environment. There is no getting rid of it. Even if you think your farm is free of salmonella, it isn’t or won’t be tomorrow. Lizards can be carriers, birds can be carriers, etc… We have those blue tail lizards everywhere around here and a lot of migrating birds so there’s no controling when it comes in. I did put some glue traps down to get rid of some lizards last year. They were EVERYwhere. This year seems to be more of a toad year.

About the ony thing they can tell you when it is cultured, is what strain it is. Salmonella is species dependent so the strain that affects birds can’t affect horses, etc… Sunlight will kill salmonella.

What tips a horse “over the edge” is when the bad gut bacteria overtakes the good gut bacteria. What I’ve found with my mare is acorns set off her GI tract into colitis. Ever since we fenced off the oak trees, she hasn’t had one case of colitis. So stress isn’t the only thing that will kick it off.

As to the foals dying of salmonella… what did their manure look like before they died? Were they passing manure? My mare didn’t have diarrhea. They called it internal diarrhea. She wasn’t passing ANYthing, but when the vet reached in to check for an impaction, they pulled out cowpatty manure that STUNK like you would not believe.

[shea_smom]

So sorry for your losses. How terrible. I was also told after having a sick young horse that salmonella is everywhere and there is nothing you can do about it. My youngster recovered.
I hope your luck improves.

[TrueColours]

but when the vet reached in to check for an impaction, they pulled out cowpatty manure that STUNK like you would not believe.

Agreed. If anyone has been around a horse that is a shedder, you know it as soon as you walk into the barn/ stall. It stinks worse than anything you have smelled before

[back_in_the_saddle]

I was also told something like 15-20% of horses carry salmonella.

[TrueColours]

I was also told something like 15-20% of horses carry salmonella.

And I would venture to say its probably much more as most people wouldnt even think salmonella when they take their horse to a show, they have loose “poops” (they would simply put it down to him being nervous away from home at a show), he comes back home again and settles down, poops return to normal, he isnt off his appetitite. Why would you even call the vet in at all let alone test him for salmonella over a course of 5 days??? At a cost of $100.00 - $150.00 per test?

Then - to continue the cycle, at the show grounds where your horse had his loose “shedding” poop, another horse is grazing in that area, picks up some fecal matter and another horse may get infected. Or - that owner steps in it and brings it home to her farm on her boots

I simply dont know how you could ever hope to control, let alone eradicate something like salmonella

[lolita1]

True Colors thanxs for the info

[Pennywell_Bay]

So sorry for your loss. Please speak to your vet. About 90% of horses that have been infected with salmonellosis stop shedding after 4 months.

Salmonella is everywhere in the environment. Horses normally carry at least one species of Salmonella in their intestinal system, and some horses carry several. As normal residents of the intestine, they do no harm; rather they contribute to digestion. Feces passing through the intesting at a “normal” rate keeps it from attaching to the walls.

Salmonella infection in horses is not new, the fact that this bacteria is resistant to most antibiotics is new. A salmonella Group 2c and has been isolated in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. In fact, a strain of salmonella Group 2c caused the Large Animal Clinic at the University of Pennsylvania to close its doors for a while due to infected animals.

Talk to your vet about the stress on your mare, any preventive measures (foaling her out at a clinic where they can truly sanatize).

[back_in_the_saddle]

the fact that this bacteria is resistant to most antibiotics is new.

Once systematic (as in full blown very sick horse) I was told it has to run its course which is about 6 weeks. I don’t remember my mare being on antibiotics while in the hospital or when she got home. Hay/roughage will speed up the removal of salmonella from the gut. Every dr. I talked to said to use probiotics as well.

[Pennywell_Bay]

treatment does not require antibiotics. Some strains are tougher, like the strain that plagued NB. Totally resistant. Some horses can fight it, some require intervention.

I would call a major clinic, give them the history and decide a best course if you plan to breed her.