One Rein Struggles & Anxiety - Mysterious Hind End Issues

[fivestrideline]

@Ottbaxel

Well, he didn’t have much show experience but he was trained as an event horse-then life got in the way, and he sat for a bit. He had been brought back into work for about a month before he came to me.

Was he “trained” to a certain level? For example, verifiably schooling 1.0m for a few years? Or was he just in an eventing program. I also have had life actually get in the way, no fault of the horse, but with yours I wonder if he was NQR and they turned him out. Not saying the seller was nefarious or anything, just a thought. As someone else said, it is a different approach if the horse is being asked to do the same or less than they definitely were doing soundly before, vs being asked for different or more.

However, it probably doesn’t matter since “back to work” for a month doesn’t really tell you anything about his soundness immediately before coming to you. What it does say is that this horse may never have been fit enough for real work since he came out of the pasture - it sounds like the issues popped up rather quick? The NPA would be stopping him from building proper muscles, and then the stifle and back gets involved and it all goes haywire. BTDT, got the tee shirt!

I feel for you, OP. Unwinding these guys can be really draining, but SO worth it when you make some headway. They often have a lot of related aches and pains that need to be addressed all at once, which makes it hard to know what worked and what didn’t. Good luck! And keep us posted!

[Ottbaxel]

@fivestrideline

Was he “trained” to a certain level? For example, verifiably schooling 1.0m for a few years? Or was he just in an eventing program

As far as I know, he was schooling beginner novice/novice. I don’t honestly know how much showing he did with the previous owner, so there is a possibility that him “schooling” beginner novice/novice at home just meant jumping infrequently at that height. His owner sent him to be sold elsewhere, so it’s kind of tricky when it’s info through another person. What I do know is that when I bought him, in the month he had been brought back to work he had been xc schooling, done some schooling jumper shows at around 2’6-2’9 and had done a horse trials as well. I took him xc schooling when I tried him too-I flatted and jumped at home one day, and then took him schooling the next without any clear issues. Other than him feeling just generally weak which I did not find alarming, he was great.

As you said though, that doesn’t mean much since he was only back in work so briefly. And it was a lot for him to be doing just one month back into work (maybe two months I’m not sure, but either way!) so I tried to give him a lot of leeway and be extra gentle the first 2-3 months. Not to mention, this horse will jump anything. I am confident you can pull him out of a field after a year off and he’d still jump around beginner novice willingly. He’d probably even do it right now with his sore hind end. So, you’re right that really doesn’t tell me much unfortunately.

[Mounted]

Alas – I agree that the timeline doesn’t really help rule out any possibilities. If he’d been in regular work of the type and intensity that you intend, I would have been somewhat skeptical that NPA was the cause of an acute change in his behavior. (It could still have been an underlying cause of discomfort leading to performance and behavior issues, of course, but unlikely to explain an abrupt change.) But since it seems like he hadn’t been worked that consistently – and was then brought back to a full load of work within a month – it does seem like the changes you observed when you brought him home could all stem from a long term issue like NPA. In this case, that is probably good news, since it would mean you’ve identified and have a plan for addressing the root cause!

[Ottbaxel]

I sure hope so! He is a very sweet but tricky horse, and I think it’s just mostly pain related. He’ll walk right up to me in his paddock, and he’ll nuzzle me with his nose and try to scratch me back when I scratch him, but as soon as you start tacking him up he’s suddenly VERY angry and threatening to bite. It’s obvious to me that he’s just uncomfortable in his body and doesn’t want to be ridden right now. I hope slowly fixing this NPA will make the difference so he can happily go back to doing the xc eventually since he loves it so much!

[Ottbaxel]

ugh. Well, my vet wanted to check him out this week under saddle after a few days of bute to check in on that LH lameness. (Don’t yell at me-I literally trotted two circles total and then got off, since it’s more pronounced under saddle). This LH lameness is way more obvious now than it was a few weeks ago-which is interesting considering the LH is the foot that had a more improved angle after the last shoeing.

We discussed blocking that leg but mostly it’s highly encouraged to do a bone scan. I really don’t think I can swing it. Maybe he’s just sore right now from the change in shoeing, and he needs to adjust? I am absolutely going to keep pushing to work really hard to fix that NPA in him too…maybe he just needs a lot of time and just to be able to get him under saddle at all for even hacking will take a few shoeing cycles. But my vet doesn’t seem to think that’s the main cause anymore given this lameness that’s become more pronounced.

Lots to think about-I may just start saving up a whole lot to try and do a bone scan eventually…I just can’t decide whether it’s worth it at all. Sigh.

[fivestrideline]

Search bone scans on here. Mixed bag - some people have had great success, some not so much.

If you aren’t already aware, the bone scan just gives you things to look at, so the cost is just the beginning. Then you’re looking at X-ray/ultrasound/MRI on the hot spots afterward. Sometimes they turn up a bunch of red herrings too.

Personally, I’d block and use a lameness locator and a really good lameness vet. You can do a lot of diagnostics before you get to the cost of the bone scan. However, some people think the scan is worth it.

I’m sorry your horse is more lame. I’d be blocking the feet and suspensories, IIWM. And time off to adjust is likely a good idea - just turn him out and maybe do some light handwalking.

[Ottbaxel]

Yeah, I think I’m going to try the blocking first. We haven’t blocked the hind legs yet but my vet did say they would most likely want the owner of the clinic to do it since he’s usually better at getting the block right where it needs to be on the first try-which is helpful with hind limbs since this guy might kick lol.

[trakehners]

Add me to the list of recommending blocking before you even think about trying a bone scan. I’d also say that this may be a case where you’ve relieved some strain on one thing and it’s allowing something else that hurts to become more obvious (and it may be something that hurts because of the NPA but was just “less important” than the other discomfort from it—my horse’s suspensory issues became way more obvious/localized after we started doing regular body work that kept his back and SI happier). If it’s soft tissue causing the problem then a bone scan won’t do you much good anyway.

We rehabbed my horse’s suspensories before we looked at his feet just because that’s how the timing worked out for blocking vs. hoof imaging, but I would’ve had to take the time to do that either way. I brought him back to work after nearly four months off, so we really were functionally starting from zero after his body had a chance to quiet down and recover. Just fixing his feet would’ve done me no good without that time to allow the rest of his body to heal (and, again, he did have to catch up to the wedges and the new biomechanics, he wasn’t suddenly fine when we made that change).

[Ottbaxel]

Yeah…I just got the quote for the bone scan. It’s not happening.

I have no idea what to do. I obviously can’t sell him this way, and I’m wary about rehoming him. It seems like I’ll just have to give him a lot of time, and see what that does for him if blocking doesn’t show us much. I already have one horse that I can’t compete with, hence why I bought this guy. I really, really do not want him to just be another horse that I can’t really ride. I’m dumping way too much money into horses to not really get any enjoyment out of it right now. Ugh!

[knic]

I’d put him in consistent work. Make that lameness as obvious as possible and then haul to the best lameness specialist you can reasonably get to.

It sounds awful to make them “worse” but you need to get to the bottom of things and the lameness has to be obvious enough to block so you know where to image.

[fivestrideline]

I’ve said it before, but I’ve been where you are and it’s so frustrating. I really feel for you! It can be absolutely exhausting.

IIWM, I’d really get after the feet, do some blocking, and get on a bodywork schedule if possible… but that’s it. Dr Green can do wonders if you aren’t just kicking them out and ignoring them entirely! I think the blocking is valuable, but if you come up empty (or even a “vague inflammation” dx), some time off would do him good.

Fix the feet, use a bodyworker to untangle the compensation, make sure you don’t have a soft tissue injury that’s brewing, and then turn him out. I’d do 6 months at least - that puts you at early spring in some areas and a good time to start thinking about rehab. If you wanted to wait until summer next year, it probably wouldn’t hurt.

Again, I’m sorry OP. This sucks. Get the clinic owner out and be very clear about your budget and expectations, and see what pops up. Pretty much anything for find is going to benefit from some Dr Green, I think.

[fivestrideline]

@knic

I’d put him in consistent work. Make that lameness as obvious as possible and then haul to the best lameness specialist you can reasonably get to.

It sounds awful to make them “worse” but you need to get to the bottom of things and the lameness has to be obvious enough to block so you know where to image.

Also, this. I forgot to say, make that appointment and work him lightly and get video. THEN rest him, as indicated.

[trakehners]

@fivestrideline

@knic

I’d put him in consistent work. Make that lameness as obvious as possible and then haul to the best lameness specialist you can reasonably get to.

It sounds awful to make them “worse” but you need to get to the bottom of things and the lameness has to be obvious enough to block so you know where to image.

Also, this. I forgot to say, make that appointment and work him lightly and get video. THEN rest him, as indicated.

Thirding this recommendation—after his initial lameness exam (and an initial round of stifle and front fetlock injections to quiet down that discomfort) my horse had ~four months of “real” work plus bodywork to manage the regular soreness before the suspensory issue was found, and it’s what confirmed to us that we actually had an issue. He did enough work that we knew it wasn’t a strength problem and we knew it was more right hind than left when we decided to go further and start blocking things.

OP, I wish I could send you my vet. Her eye for lameness is beyond anything I’ve seen and she found without pulling out any machines what multiple other vets had missed with my horse. The others were great people and they tried their best, she’s just… better. So much of this kind of situation comes down to your support team and how skilled (and stubborn) they are. Our vet looked at my horse and saw a puzzle she wanted to solve because he was just weird and she wanted to know why. It doesn’t guarantee a solution but the curiosity definitely helps.

[Ottbaxel]

I guess one follow-up question, given I am worried about the suspensories.

Should I wait a couple weeks+ for the owner of my clinic to block him…or should I ask my vet to ultrasound his suspensories sooner than that? On one hand, ultrasounding might be a waste of money if we end up blocking him anyways, but on the other hand it might help us find the issue without having to do all of the blocking. It seems to me that’s the most likely culprit after all of this.

My vet did mention that they don’t think this is all entirely due to his NPA since he doesn’t have any strange muscular development, aside from being underdeveloped everywhere while he’s out of work. But it could be his angles are putting strain on his suspensory, and whatever we just did made it worse perhaps?

[trakehners]

We ultrasounded my horse’s suspensories after we blocked to confirm what the block was indicating. I’m not sure that would be your vet’s MO if they feel that’s what the blocking indicates, but if it is, might as well ultrasound ahead of time and confirm what you would maybe find via blocking anyway.

Given what you’ve said about his workload before he came to you, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is the suspensories—horse has bad angles, horse seems fine while hanging out, horse comes back to work and starts being asked to actually do things, horse tweaks something that was still not good but was quiet when they didn’t have to push because NPA has them on their heels and it strains the ligaments. Improving the angles even a little bit might just be giving him the ability to go “Ow, Mom, this thing hurts, see???” in a way that he couldn’t before, maybe because his back is feeling a little better or something like that and it’s one less thing to be guarding. It might also be how the wedged shoes are fitted to him. My horse had the whole package with the wedges: frog support, hoof packing under the pad, everything set to ensure he had maximum support for his heels so they weren’t being crushed and the impact on the internal structures of his legs was minimized as much as possible. If the setup isn’t quite right with a wedge of any kind it could very well exacerbate a tendon/ligament problem that already exists.

My horse had no weird muscling aside from the fact that his front end is much stronger than the back since he couldn’t really push from behind before. He wasn’t really upside down or anything, just stiff and weak. That’s partly why it took so long to figure out what was wrong with him. FWIW, he had bilateral PSD and the fiber pattern showed it had been chronic, but there was no significant tearing, just a bunch of edema in a totally normal-sized ligament. Thankfully he’s a drama queen and he always tells me when something is wrong even if it’s not “major” compared to stories you see on the internet. Just because they’re showing signs that something is going on doesn’t mean you’re necessarily looking at a massive tear. It may just be inflammation that needs time to quiet down and needs his feet to be fixed to make it stop being chronic.

[Ottbaxel]

Well, it’s been a couple weeks and I’m still pondering what to do. My older guy is due for his injections, so money is going towards that first.

I did put my guy on the lunge today briefly to check in. He’s still sore, still weird, and still super reactive when I asked for one canter transition (I just wanted to see his good side briefly, which is the direction he doesn’t typically go leaping around on but alas). I have a few different thoughts running through my head right now-

1.) wait a bit then do ultrasound to check his suspensories.

2.) don’t do anything besides taking more and more toe off at each appointment to hopefully keep fixing the NPA, and maybe see how he’s doing in a few months.

3.) pull his hind shoes and see what happens, keep trimming the toe more and give him more time off. This wouldn’t necessarily be good for the NPA, but he was seemingly happiest before any hind foot intervention so perhaps just letting the foot do what it wants to do for the most part, even though angles are negative, will keep him soundest even though it’s not “correct”.

4.) find him retirement board for cheap further south, and let him sit there for a bit while I find a different ride for myself in the meantime. When my older guy has to retire (in probably 1-2 years), then I can bring him back and see where we’re at and maybe try again.

Selfishly, I just really want to be able to ride. The horse will always come first don’t get me wrong, but I recently was able to ride and care for a friend’s horse while they were away and it just reminded me all over again how amazing it feels just to get to ride even a basic walk trot canter. (And yes, I can ride my older guy still as he is only half leased out, but he has significant arthritis and is only about 15h, so now with the advancement of his OA I usually opt to keep my rides on him much lighter as I am 5’9 and am a bit tall for him).

[FjordBCRF]

Posting to commiserate, we are three days into a month (to start) EPM treatment. We also found a mineralization deposit at C1 and boney changes at C5, C6, and C7. Either or both could be contributing to his stumbling problem. If it’s the cervical stuff, probably not a whole lot of options there.

I’m finding some joy in liberty work with him. We’re currently working on picking me up at the block, going from come to cone, then dropping me back off bridle and saddle-less. He’s really engaging with me so that makes me happy. I’m doing my best to take things one day at a time but I can tell I’m feeling the possibility that our riding years are probably limited at very best.

I myself have cervical disc degeneration disease as well as a connective tissue disorder and more recently, riding was really starting to aggravate new spots throughout my back. It’s a very real possibility not riding much will be better for me too, but I’ll only admit that if he has to be some sort of retired. Having him is keeping me active which helps all my physical issues and my mental health so yeah, one day at a time.

Hang in there

[MsM]

FWIW, I did ultrasound on my horse’s hind suspensories without doing blocking. He was not lame, but I had the vet do a lameness exam before moving him up the levels in dressage. I had wondered about his hocks, but radiographs were great.

Unfortunately, he was sensitive to palpation on one suspensory. Ultrasound showed some disruption in proximal suspensory (and a bit in the other hind). Without advanced imaging we couldnt be sure if it was old damage or current. I opted to treat him to forestall future problems, so we are doing shockwave treatments. He is allowed hand walking and minimal walk-trot riding as well as small paddock turnout. We have learned from a previous injury that he needs his routine and some “work” to occupy his busy brain!

BTW, I am not sure if you can do ultrasound directly after blocking in the same visit.

[fivestrideline]

@MsM

BTW, I am not sure if you can do ultrasound directly after blocking in the same visit.

You cannot. Has to be a separate visit!

[Ottbaxel]

Yeah, I still can’t decide what to do at this point. I’ve been hemming and hawing over it big time.

I did find a different farrier to come do his feet-I posted an update pic in the “please judge these NPA feet” thread. He took wayyyy way more toe off and added a heart bar shoe. His feet just to the naked eye look very different already - I think they are visibly more upright but I haven’t confirmed by X-ray. I think I might wait this out and see if it will make enough of a difference for him. He got them done on Friday, and was so sore he was trying to kick the farrier so we had to sedate him (he is NOT a kicker typically). I popped him on the lunge the other day to see how he looked but he took off broncing, and it’s way too early to see a change anyways so I just reined him in and stopped lol.

I am debating taking new rads to check the angle, but I’ve just spent soooo much money on him lately. I think I’m going to just do Masterson Method on him for a little bit and see if he eventually adjusts.