One vehicle/two jobs?? Ponies and goats.

[didgery]

I have gotten the driving bug (I had a driving mini that my mom and I started when I was a teenager, so I’m not a total beginner, but I don’t have much other experience). I would like to start my Shetland in harness, but don’t yet have the proper equipment. I would ALSO like to train a single or team of goats (I have three good driving prospects, of my six goats, to work with). I do realize that the 10.2 hh Shetland is going to need shafts that are higher, longer, wider than the goats.

My budget is small, so I may just buy the harnesses for now, but I’ve found an ebay seller with cute metal easy-entry carts ranging from $300 to $500. She makes a dog/goat/mini size with removable shafts and a team pole (perfect for the goats!) and she also makes a couple of different pony carts (the mini/shetland cart and the pony/cob cart). The shafts are adjustable in length but not in width or height. Her sale listings are here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZkingstonsaddlery

Is there any way I could get the goat cart and then enlist the help of a clever friend with a welding torch and create some wider, longer shafts for the pony, or would the balance be off?

We are thinking about just tooling about on the private lanes near our house, nothing fancy.

The addition of the team pole for the small cart is very attractive as I would like to drive two goats but also have the option of starting them singly . . . otherwise, I would be considering buying a Shetland size cart and modifying it for the goats instead of the other way round.

The weights of the carts I’m looking at, by the way, range from 70 to 85 pounds or so so the difference in weight won’t be huge either way.

So my questions are thus: What size cart for a 10.2 Shetland (he’s a leggy type), and can I use one of the carts at the above link for both the pony and the goats (single or double) with some modifications?

Thanks!

[Drive_NJ]

I know absolutely nothing about driving goats, but these type of carrs typically have shafts that are removable. The shaft unit is u shaped and bolts on to the front of the vehicle. I’m thinking you could get whichever cart you think will want to use mostly and buy extra shafts in the size you want.

Be aware that flat tires are an issue with these types of carts. They also always seem to be off-balance with more weight on the pony than is preferred. Also be aware that the shafts are easily bent by larger animals, but they seem to work well enough for ring and road work on small animals.

[goodhors]

Adding to Drive NJ’s observations, 2-wheel cart shaft weight, pole weight, are heavier on the animals than a 4-wheel vehicle. I have to believe the pole end weight on goats’ necks will be HEAVY. It is all that is holding the cart and your weight, up in the air.

Goats drive, can drive well. Many older photos of goats hitched to wagons, a few carts. I guess if you were going to drive them, they wanted a vehicle that would carry something worthwhile, no shaft weight on goat… An actual load, whether delivering or picking stuff up. Carts don’t hold much, beyond the kid, along with being shaft heavy.

My other understanding is that goats are EXTREMELY light in the mouth, you can’t muscle them AT ALL. They probably won’t go forward or lay down!! This made them a very good tool for training drivers, developing sensitive hands in the children. Something to be aware of.

So while you are looking at vehicles, you may want to look at some 4-wheeled things. A cart is a good start for beginners, but with the small animals you have, you probably will get more enjoyment, comfort for you and them, using a 4-wheeled one. With no weight on their back, they can go a lot further forward, easier, for longer drives. I saw some 4-wheeled wagon types in Indiana, had the same tires, using a small Shetland to pull it. SEEMED to be solid, traveled straight from behind, carried about 5 Amish kids and things in sacks. So there are vehicles out there. You might call and ask these folks about them. They aren’t shown in their vehicle list, but I saw the little wagon in Shipshewana, so they would know about them.

http://www.troyercarriage.com/products.html

The tires shown with air inside, do go flat easily. Others on here use motorcycle tires on carts, which have heavier spokes and don’t seem to flatten very easily. Works well in sandy ground. And though folks do drive the carts you show outside the ring, they are really designed for groomed surfaces. Roads, rings, firm trails they are not too bad. Bouncing around the paddock or field, is a hard ride, stresses the metal in vehicles a lot with rigid structure. Just no give like wood has. Not too comfortable for you with no springs under seat. Add in trot speed, rough ground, bouncing tires and they easily flip over. I don’t care if you are a VERY LARGE person, you can’t keep them down. Those carts flip in an instant! I have seen it happen more than once. You just can’t hold them down.

Flipping brings up the cart with pole option. Pole carts are known for being easy to flip with horses. Shafts being held down on both sides with harness, on larger carts, wood carts, makes them more stable when they do bounce. With the pole cart, held up with a yoke under horse necks, the pole just spins in yoke holder when the one wheel rises up. Flips over. If the yoke or harness is at all loose, the yoke can come off, DRIVING the pole into ground for an immediate halt. Hard surface ground may allow pole to skitter along, not snagging to halt vehicle so badly. Not sure what kind of speed goats can get up, but a consideration in harnessing and where you plan to drive. Again, rough ground may be a poor choice. A safety strap around the yoke support is a good safety feature, to prevent pole loss. Won’t stop vehicle from tipping over.

Sorry to sound so negative, but better to spend your money once, on safe or better designed equipment. Especially if you have to save up to finally get your choices. Less likely to get hurt. I really got excited when a friend bought a horse pole cart, sounded like a TERRIFIC idea! So EASY to use. Then all the downsides appeared, really scary hearing about folks getting tossed out of carriage when it tipped over on some little rolling ground!! We were REALLY glad we hadn’t jumped on the Pole Cart bandwagon too!

[didgery]

These are all very good points and I thank you both for sharing with me.

I am struggling to raise the funds to buy CHEAP harnesses and a CHEAP cart to get everybody started . . . maybe I should think this through further. I could get DECENT harnesses for everybody and forget the vehicle . . . drag logs, etc. until everyone’s trained. Get a good vehicle in a year or two.

One way or the other, I am itching to get started . . . it’s so much fun having equestrian goals that are NOT hampered by my not having a horse of my own! The pony and the goats between them should be able to meet this need of mine to have someone to drive.

Further advice/thoughts very welcome . . .

And finally, a vehicle style that I love (but can’t afford): http://www.dragondriving.co.uk/images/horsecarts/carriage738-1.jpg

What would you call it? What are it’s pros and cons?

[didgery]

Another vehicle that would work well for goats??

http://www.franksbuggys.com/mini%20trail%20training%20wagon.htm

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=didgery;3333304]

And finally, a vehicle style that I love (but can’t afford): http://www.dragondriving.co.uk/images/horsecarts/carriage738-1.jpg

What would you call it? What are it’s pros and cons?[/QUOTE]

I would call it a Ralli Car. Back to back seats, very short coupled for small turning radius, single piece, bent wood fenders.

Looks like a VERY nice carriage, older, in good conditon. Probably a great ride for fun driving, stylish enough for Pleasure Showing. I have seen some 2-wheeled carts with similar seat and fenders, same styling, also called Ralli Cars.

Thomas may have another name for it. The UK folks and Americans use the same names, but can mean completely different styles of vehicles. Traps for Thomas are always 2-wheeled carts. Traps for Americans are always 4-wheeled, seating for 4. We talked at cross-purposes for a bit on that! People seperated by our common language!

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=didgery;3333327]
Another vehicle that would work well for goats??

http://www.franksbuggys.com/mini%20trail%20training%20wagon.htm[/QUOTE]

This would be similar to what I saw in Indiana. That one was natural finish, with board sides not plywood. Tires all the same size, looked more substantial. Wide enough that larger children were not crammed on the double seats. Just a bit more finished look to it. The white one looks a bit more home made, not as smoothed out, blended edges.

However board sides may be heavier weight, which is a consideration for goats. Pony probably wouldn’t notice it when he gets used to driving. I bet if you search around, check with others, you will turn up some used stuff. Could save you a bunch in costs. I know there is always a lot of used pony stuff if you hunt for it. Construction design is a big consideration in vehicles. My friend with minis found lots of junk available, but few quality made carts when she wanted to get into pleasure driving and CDL. She got a Meadowbrook from Mini Express that has been tough and good quality construction for her uses. Really has taken hard use well. She got a Glinkowski when she went to driving a Pair of minis. Both vehicles were fairly expensive in the world of mini equipment, but quality made, roll easily. Before the the Glinkowski, modern, all metal vehicle, she really could not find anything that she would use outside a ring. Poor design and hardware, cobbled up from other usages.

Perhaps fitting the 4 wheeler to pony, then getting a goat hitching arragement in front of it, would be a way to go. Time spent training all animals to voice commands, learning to manage light loads just dragging, gives you time to explore other options. May I suggest small car tires as a pulling object? They don’t snag on things, move easily, yet give steady drag, unlike poles or logs. Logs and poles do snag easily, often jump erratically on uneven surface ground, swing hard, rolling on turns if trotting. I don’t consider them real safe.

Maybe there is a goat driving forum someplace!! With the upsurge in popularity of the Boer goats, crossbreds, I am sure others are getting into driving them. They are big BEASTS, certainly capable of easily pulling a load. A Pair would manage that wagon without problems in a ring or on hard surface ground.

I did a Google search on “goat cart wagon”, turned up a lot of choices to look at. One of the options for wagons was a double shaft for Pair, instead of a pole. Would help keep the pole weight off goat necks!! Certainly a consideration if I was thinking of driving any goats or sheep. Horse necks get enough pole pull, using wider, bigger straps, thicker muscles in their bodies than goats. Bodies of equine and ovine are not the same, so shafts could be fine with goat Pair, where pole usage is better with horses who will need more flexibility with their longer body.

This discussion certainly makes my thinking shoot around in various directions, considering angles from a new viewpoint! Sounds like a lot of fun.

[didgery]

Thanks for all the replies! Given my limited budget I think I will start by getting the harnesses and wait on a vehicle. In the meantime I can do groundwork with the beasties and possibly rig up some sort of yard wagon thingy for under a hundred bucks just so the goat wether can pull the children down the lane and back. I don’t want to cut corners with a pony wagon as he’ll move at higher speed than the goats and require something a little sturdier! You’ve all brought up some very good points and I think I have a much clearer idea of my goals, anyway!

[Drive_NJ]

Check out the goat vehicles on this page. Love the pretty cart on first pic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donna-w/1365785042/

<http://www.dynesfamily.com/Russell%20Senior%20Pictures/RussellSrGoatLG.gif>

We got sent a vintage picture of a tandem - donkey or mule wheeler and goat leader… but I can’t figure out how to post. No longer premium member and not my picture to put up on photo sites. Sender also doesn’t remember where she found it. Argh

By the way… I think you are making the right decision in waiting to buy the cart until you can afford what you want.

[Cartfall]

Are these goats actually wearing bits?

How abslutely —I am at a loss for words. Different I guess.

Can you imagine doing a goat CDE?:D:winkgrin:

[gothedistance]

They look like they’re just wearing halters. Bitless goats. :lol:

I think it would be hilarious to see goats doing a CDE. Imagine the bug-eyes on the horses watching!

[Drive_NJ]

MORE goat vehicles!

Dug a little deeper in modern harness goat site and found even more pictures, plus a lot more information than you probably want on driving goats - how to start, which sex is best to drive, etc.

http://www.harnessgoats.co.uk/gallery.htm

Looks like one skill needed is the ability to fold your body into a teeny tiny vehicle with our knees around your chin Especially picture HGS15

[goodhors]

Thanks Drive NJ. All the sites and photos you posted are REALLY interesting. The antiques in the Gallery are so cool. Who would have thought they would put so much work, effort into making goat vehicles!! I like the Pair of blacks with the Wagonette about best. Though all the other turnouts are also very neat and well presented. Lots of work in the costumes too.

Sure is a different angle to Driving!! I wonder what kind of mileage they get with a goat, out on a drive?

Again, thanks for the sites and photos to view.

[nj2]

On one of our “field trips” we visited a historic village in Wisconsin (someplace north of Milwaukee - dont remember exactly where) and they had a very good carriage collection that included a very pretty goat cart - they ARE out there

[Whisper]

I had dairy goats when I was in H.S. Even small shetlands are still significantly taller and wider than most goats are, but I don’t have experience with driving goats, so I’m not sure what would be needed as far as equipment.

She would jump (in hand), carry little kids, and do tricks, but I never tried driving her!

[Ashemont]

This thread has just been way too interesting… since we had triplet kids born this year All three will walk on a lead and are quite sweet. I jokingly said I could do a unicorn with them but while I think two of them might work, the third I’m not so sure about. I think she’s headed to the freezer :uhoh:

Phoenix and his daughter Mehru are still VERY skittish around the goats. I can just imagine the havoc they would create if I were to drive two of them at a horse event :lol: But it might be something fun to play around with. Hmmmm… anyone have a used pair harness and goat vehicle for sale CHEAP??? :yes:

[Painted_Wings]

I’ve always wanted to drive my goats

Caprine supply has a goat driving booklet and harness and accessories for sale. I have an antique pair goat harness but it’s for larger goats than my two pygmies.

Go to http://www.caprinesupply.com/ and click on working goats then harness goats.

I have a collection of old goat driving photos.

http://members.aol.com/paintedwngs/goat.html

My antique harness does have bits but you can see that many have more of a halter type configuration.

Next time I put in an order with caprine supply I’m going to get the booklet.

There used to be a place that sold shafts for a little red wagon. I think it was used more for large dogs though.

Check out this place, you can get a variety of accessories for a wagon.

http://www.pineridgeonline.com/home.php?cat=49

[Diamantcats]

wow such intresting post… I never have thought you can drive goats
now I wish I had known that when I was a kid.

[gothedistance]

@Ashemont;3347578

Phoenix and his daughter Mehru are still VERY skittish around the goats. I can just imagine the havoc they would create if I were to drive two of them at a horse event :lol:

What is it about goats that terrifies horses??? My endurance pony HATES them with a passion – he’s absolutely beside himself at the sight of them, no matter how far away. Having to deal with a pet goat near the In Gate at one endurance ride ended up taking us out of the running for placing because my guy’s HR would leap to over 220 just having to pass by that d@mn goat. I thought my guy was going to turn himself inside out. Took me valuable LONG minutes just to get it down to parameter so we could vet in. That happened at every loop for the entire 2-day weekend. He never did accept that beast and every time just went into cardiac arrest. What a pain!! Yet… he’ll graze peacefully alongside my flock of sheep, practically on top of the woolies. :rolleyes:

Don’t know how the other ponies would handle goats – they’ve never seen them.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Ashemont;3347578]
This thread has just been way too interesting… since we had triplet kids born this year All three will walk on a lead and are quite sweet. I jokingly said I could do a unicorn with them but while I think two of them might work, the third I’m not so sure about. I think she’s headed to the freezer :uhoh:

Phoenix and his daughter Mehru are still VERY skittish around the goats. I can just imagine the havoc they would create if I were to drive two of them at a horse event :lol: But it might be something fun to play around with. Hmmmm… anyone have a used pair harness and goat vehicle for sale CHEAP??? :yes:[/QUOTE]

h a ha you made me giggle so would this be a welll marked goat for freezer or well marked goat for driving ha ha ( i know i have spelt your stalllion right ok )