Only booking fee paid until foal stands and nurses?

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7596192]
I asked a similar question before but it’s still not clear to me:

If you buy a mare in foal at an auction, say a large Thoroughbred auction, is the stallion fee paid? Does the answer to this question depend on the auction house? How does the new owner get registration papers when the foal is born, that is, what paperwork would the new owner submit to the Jockey Club in order to register the baby?[/QUOTE]

With Thoroughbreds, entering a mare in a sale automatically makes the season payable and no guarantee. So when you purchase the mare, the fee has been paid (or will be paid out of sales proceeds). To register the baby, you will need to submit a Live Foal Report, then a Registration Application (and fee) plus the DNA kit to the lab. The Stallion Service Certificate will have been released on payment of the stud fee by the seller (either in advance of the sale on payment of the fee by the seller, or via proceeds from sale), and there will be no encumbrances to registration.

The stud fee is not owed by the purchaser, which I think is your big question. It will have already been paid.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7596294]
With Thoroughbreds, entering a mare in a sale automatically makes the season payable and no guarantee. So when you purchase the mare, the fee has been paid (or will be paid out of sales proceeds). To register the baby, you will need to submit a Live Foal Report, then a Registration Application (and fee) plus the DNA kit to the lab. The Stallion Service Certificate will have been released on payment of the stud fee by the seller (either in advance of the sale on payment of the fee by the seller, or via proceeds from sale), and there will be no encumbrances to registration.

The stud fee is not owed by the purchaser, which I think is your big question. It will have already been paid.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. So the next question: I have noticed mares being sold in foal and the resulting sale price being less, sometimes way less, than the advertised stud fee. Why would the stallion owner not collect money in advance, as in the example gumtree posted, and refund if the foal fails to stand and nurse, as opposed to trying to collect later? It just seems like the stallion owners/stud farms would be losing a lot of money if a lot of people just willy nilly breed and then sell at auction without concern about the actual cost of the stud fee.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7596403]
Thank you. So the next question: I have noticed mares being sold in foal and the resulting sale price being less, sometimes way less, than the advertised stud fee. Why would the stallion owner not collect money in advance, as in the example gumtree posted, and refund if the foal fails to stand and nurse, as opposed to trying to collect later? It just seems like the stallion owners/stud farms would be losing a lot of money if a lot of people just willy nilly breed and then sell at auction without concern about the actual cost of the stud fee.[/QUOTE]

Not all stud fees paid are the same amount as the published stud fee!! Deals are made, shares are owned, stallions are owned. The stallion fee is paid before a mare goes through a sale…no risk to SO…and if the mare doesn’t produce a live foal there is NO guarantee/return or refund. Semen really isn’t an expensive commodity…just a “jar’s worth” of swimmers. A barren TB mare isn’t worth much. (TB) Stallion owners are also selective of the quality of the mares they breed. Dud offspring hurts a stallion’s record. I don’t know if that answers your question.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7596167]
LFSN is only a contract payable when foal stands & nurses. LFG 9/1, 10/1, 11/1, or other date is something else entirely, where the fee is payable on that date but refundable if the foal does not stand & nurse.[/QUOTE]

While this is true it is still considered a LFSN. It is not “something else entirely”. At least not in my experience and I have been signing and or writing contracts for years.
It will say in the language of the contract that the seller warrants a live foal that can stand and nurse or the fee is refunded. The only difference in LFG is the payment terms and dates of. This type of contract generally comes with at least a 10% discount.
There is also Live Foal pay upon signing of the contract. Which generally comes with a pretty good discount. It is also used on very high demand stallions who are difficult to get to. And does not come with a discount.

The term “Live Foal” always means Stands and Nurses" regardless of when payment is required. But “stands and nurses” should always be in the language of the contract.

Most breeders that purchase a season payable in the year the mare was covered do it for tax purposes. Writing off the cost of the season against income from the sale of yearlings or other stock. If a breeder buys a mare at auction the “value” or cost of the stud fee for what she has in her belly is deductible also in the year purchased. Unless the tax law has changed. One should ask an experienced “horse accountant” to make sure this is still allowed.

Most farms, at least the ones I have worked with over the years have not held the “stands and nurses” as the “standard” for payment. We have had a couple of foals that were able to stand and nurse but developed “issues” not long after birth and died within a couple of days. We and or clients have never been required to pay.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7596294]
With Thoroughbreds, entering a mare in a sale automatically makes the season payable and no guarantee. So when you purchase the mare, the fee has been paid (or will be paid out of sales proceeds). To register the baby, you will need to submit a Live Foal Report, then a Registration Application (and fee) plus the DNA kit to the lab. The Stallion Service Certificate will have been released on payment of the stud fee by the seller (either in advance of the sale on payment of the fee by the seller, or via proceeds from sale), and there will be no encumbrances to registration.

The stud fee is not owed by the purchaser, which I think is your big question. It will have already been paid.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but this is not entirely true. At least not with ANY of the contracts I have signed over the years. And I would not sign one that states “the fee is payable and becomes NG when the mare is entered in a sale”.

The contracts that I have signed, many, many of them states in short, " the fee is payable and becomes NG when the mare steps off the van at the sales grounds".

Lots of mares are entered in a sale and are either withdrawn before the catalogue goes to press and or are scratched after the fact but never go to the sale. If the mare does not get off the van at the sales grounds the LFG and or LFSN is still warranted. If the contract is worded IMO and experience “correctly”.

As with any contract one should completely read everything in the contract and make sure they understand the language. I would advise any breeder not to sign a contract that says, “the fee is payable and becomes NG when the mare is entered in a sale”.
A seamen dealer may try and slip that in but it is not the standard clause. And is completely negotiable. Along with a number of things.

Reminder to those that have read my posts/comments I only work with Thoroughbreds and the business of. So my comments only pertain to TB that are being bred for racing and or breeding under JC rules and regs.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7596403]
Thank you. So the next question: I have noticed mares being sold in foal and the resulting sale price being less, sometimes way less, than the advertised stud fee. Why would the stallion owner not collect money in advance, as in the example gumtree posted, and refund if the foal fails to stand and nurse, as opposed to trying to collect later? It just seems like the stallion owners/stud farms would be losing a lot of money if a lot of people just willy nilly breed and then sell at auction without concern about the actual cost of the stud fee.[/QUOTE]

When a mare is sold at auction the stallion “service certificate” which is issued by the JC goes with the mare. The service certificate is only released by the JC when it is notified by the “syndicate manager” if the stallion is syndicated and the “standing farm” is usually the syndicated manger. Or by the standing farm.
The fee may or may not have been paid. The mare seller and the stallion owner may have a “side agreement” and or the fee will be paid out of proceeds for the sale of the mare. The stallion owner will have a lien in place on the sales proceeds with the Sales company.

The Sales company will pay the stallion owner directly and the balance will be sent to the seller of the mare.
How ever if the mare should sell for less then what is owned for the stud fee the buyer of the mare still gets the mare with the “stallion service certificate” "free and clear of any liens and or encumbrances.
The seller will be responsible to pay the balance to the stallion owner. The stallion owner has no recourse with the buyer of the mare and can not restrict that person from registering the resulting foal. Whether the balance on the stud fee was paid or not by the seller of the mare.
This applies to mares sold at public auction by the major TB auction houses.

If the Sale company does not have the “service certificate” on file by the time the mare is slated to go in “the ring” the sales company will scratch the mare, not sell. Regardless of what the seller wants to do.

Private sales can be a bit different depending on how the contract was written. But by and large the Live Foal clause is worded the same as the mare being sold at auction. In short “the live foal guarantee only applies to the owner of the mare at the signing of the contract”. So if sold privately and or given, transferred to a “third” party the contract becomes NG. But this can be negotiated depending on ones “relationship” with the stallion owner. Which I have done. Very easy to do if the mare is not leaving the boarding farm only owner ship is being transferred.

[PeteyPie]

Thank you all. Your explanations have answered my questions. This does help me understand the issues and it also illustrates to me some of the problems and risks on the business end of managing a stud farm. I have not purchased a mare in foal but I always wondered how the farm collected its fee. I can see now that it is done in various ways, and the Service Certificate is a key piece of paper in the auction sale transaction.

From the point of view of the stallion owner/manager, I guess if a mare owner auctioned off the (in foal) mare for less than the contracted stud fee (and didn’t pay the difference), then the stud farm might not do business with that mare owner in the future, or not, depending on factors such as how good of a customer the mare owner is and how often that happens. My mind is just imagining all the situations and bad blood which could ensue in such situations and until you spelled it out, I didn’t even consider the very real possibility that the foal might not survive!

Are there any high-profile lawsuits surrounding such failures to pay? Maybe the rest of the world would find it boring. Not me! Novels could be written! I would read them!

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7596862]
While this is true it is still considered a LFSN. It is not “something else entirely”. At least not in my experience and I have been signing and or writing contracts for years. [/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. The abbreviation “LFSN” means “live foal payable when foal stands and nurses” (as opposed to payable 9/1, 10/1, or whatever the contract specifies). If you see a horse advertised as $5K LFSN, that fee is not due any other time other than after the foal stands and nurses, as opposed to fees that are due earlier and then refundable.

Yes, all LF contracts are subject to a foal standing & nursing. But a LFSN contract is ONLY due WHEN foal stands and nurses, as opposed to the other variations. LFSN is a standard abbreviation to mean specifically that.

[Beaver_Breeze]

@gumtree;7596912

I am sorry but this is not entirely true. At least not with ANY of the contracts I have signed over the years. And I would not sign one that states “the fee is payable and becomes NG when the mare is entered in a sale”.

The contracts that I have signed, many, many of them states in short, " the fee is payable and becomes NG when the mare steps off the van at the sales grounds".

Back when I was doing stallion contracts, most of them said “entered.” However, it was not actually enforced unless she set foot on the sales grounds.

(For what it’s worth, I was surprised by it, for the reasons you have enumerated, such as withdrawals. Still, it existed, even if it wasn’t ever really enforced. These days, “transport” seems to be the key wording. I can only assure you that that wasn’t always the case, and nobody really worried about it.)

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7596912]

Reminder to those that have read my posts/comments I only work with Thoroughbreds and the business of. So my comments only pertain to TB that are being bred for racing and or breeding under JC rules and regs.[/QUOTE]

Same for me, for the most part, although I have limited dealings with Quarter Horses and Standardbreds.

[Dressage_Fancy]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7598029]
Same for me, for the most part, although I have limited dealings with Quarter Horses and Standardbreds.[/QUOTE]

I was involved in Standardbreds for years. Stud fee was paid on live foal. And my quarter horse friends paid their stud fees up front. (If your quarter mare didn’t catch you brought her back the next year. Stud fee was never refunded.) Of course this was before shiped semen which has changed much of how breeding is done as far as costs/fees.

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=Dressage Fancy;7598245]
I was involved in Standardbreds for years. Stud fee was paid on live foal. And my quarter horse friends paid their stud fees up front. (If your quarter mare didn’t catch you brought her back the next year. Stud fee was never refunded.) Of course this was before shiped semen which has changed much of how breeding is done as far as costs/fees.[/QUOTE]

Boy, has it ever! Learning the ins & outs of breeds allowing AI after an extensive career with TBs has been a real eye-opener.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7598026]
I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. The abbreviation “LFSN” means “live foal payable when foal stands and nurses” (as opposed to payable 9/1, 10/1, or whatever the contract specifies). If you see a horse advertised as $5K LFSN, that fee is not due any other time other than after the foal stands and nurses, as opposed to fees that are due earlier and then refundable.

Yes, all LF contracts are subject to a foal standing & nursing. But a LFSN contract is ONLY due WHEN foal stands and nurses, as opposed to the other variations. LFSN is a standard abbreviation to mean specifically that.[/QUOTE]

Just so others are clear on this. LFG is not something “something else entirely” as you said which is all I am trying to point out.

The acronyms LFG and LFSN after an advertised fee mean the same thing the stallion owner guarantees the breeder a Live Foal that can stand and nurse. The ONLY difference is when payment is due.

A stallion’s who’s fee is advertised LFG will always have a payment date following. So IMO this is pretty clear to any breeder reading the advertisement. If not the stallion owner is playing games.
When a TB breeder see a stallion advertised as LFSN we know the payment is generally owed 30 days after foaling. No further explanation needed.

Yes, I used LFSN instead of LFG payable 10-1 (of year bred) in my original post but explained some Live Foal contracts require payment in the fall of the year bred. But it is still a Live Foal Stands and Nurses contract. And if the mare should not have one the fee is refunded. Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough on this. It’s kind of splitting hairs IMO. The exception I took to your comment was the use of “something else entirely”.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Daventry;7595539]
We offer a refund of the stud fee if the mare is unable to conceive, a foal dies, at say 12 hours old, and the Mare Owner doesn’t want to try and rebreed…or the stallion is unfit for service. I’m already taking money from them for collection and shipping fees, and they’ve got a ton of expenses at their end already. My opinion, I have no right to keep a $1,500 stud fee when they didn’t end up with an “end product”.[/QUOTE]

You are so awesome.

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7600549]
Just so others are clear on this. LFG is not something “something else entirely” as you said which is all I am trying to point out.

The acronyms LFG and LFSN after an advertised fee mean the same thing the stallion owner guarantees the breeder a Live Foal that can stand and nurse. The ONLY difference is when payment is due.

A stallion’s who’s fee is advertised LFG will always have a payment date following. So IMO this is pretty clear to any breeder reading the advertisement. If not the stallion owner is playing games.
When a TB breeder see a stallion advertised as LFSN we know the payment is generally owed 30 days after foaling. No further explanation needed.

Yes, I used LFSN instead of LFG payable 10-1 (of year bred) in my original post but explained some Live Foal contracts require payment in the fall of the year bred. But it is still a Live Foal Stands and Nurses contract. And if the mare should not have one the fee is refunded. Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough on this. It’s kind of splitting hairs IMO. The exception I took to your comment was the use of “something else entirely”.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what to say, Gumtree. To me, a LF contract due September 1st IS “something else entirely” compared to one that is “live foal stands & nurses.” I am quite certain that anyone who issues these contracts would agree. I felt your post was confusing because it conflated LFSN with other LF contracts. The abbreviation is specific, and that’s why I took exception.

I think I was pretty clear, and I’m not sure why you took such issue. I was not trying to show you up, I was trying to clarify for people who would have been otherwise confused. You obviously know what you’re talking about, as do I. It was a matter of clarification, and nothing more.

I am going to end the post now, because I am having a very bad day (month, year) and I really can’t take having to debate this sort of thing. No offense to you, Gumtree; it’s not your fault.