Is this a new thing that the booking fee is only paid and then the stud fee is paid when it his a live foal? I have never heard this. Or maybe the people I knew who stood stallions were the odd ducks out? I would think that not being made to pay the stud fee upfront would cause some people to not pay. I am leasing a stallion and people have been saying they have only paid when the foal was born.
That is the norm with TBs although they don’t usually have a booking fee either. The foal is born, all is well, you write the check. Of course any stallion owner can write their contract any way they like so I am just speaking in generalities.
In TBs I found that owners often didn’t pay stud fees until they needed a breeding certificate to register the baby, which they usually did months and months later. If the baby didn’t look like it was going to run, they wouldn’t bother trying to register and then didn’t need a breeding certificate, and then stiffed the stallion owner. Not condoning this in the least bit, but it does happen or at least it used to. Something to be aware of.
[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7594459]
In TBs I found that owners often didn’t pay stud fees until they needed a breeding certificate to register the baby, which they usually did months and months later. If the baby didn’t look like it was going to run, they wouldn’t bother trying to register and then didn’t need a breeding certificate, and then stiffed the stallion owner. Not condoning this in the least bit, but it does happen or at least it used to. Something to be aware of.[/QUOTE]
Not saying this doesn’t happen-- it probably does-- but only a vet certificate verifying that a live foal was not produced gets one out of a LF contract. So even if they don’t register the foal (and request the Stallion Service Certificate), they are still liable for the fee without the vet cert. That said, it requires the stallion owner to sue to recoup the fee, which not all bother to do. But it is not as simple as “not requesting the breeding certificate.”
If you are referring to Thoroughbred stallions covering TB mares for racing and or sales the “booking fee” is a relatively new marketing scheme being employed by several KY stallion farms. The most notable being Spendthrift. Which advertises “share the upside” rather “share the risk” on some of their stallions mainly “freshmen” or those who’s first foals are of racing age… The service contract/fee is based on live foal stands and nurses, LFSN. When the foal is born and registered the foal certificate is issued to the breeder but is sent to the stallion owner if the resulting foal is going to be sold at auction. With Spendthrift stallions the first $X dollars from the sale goes to the breeder, then the next X amount, X being the stud fee goes to the stallion owner. Anything above the stud fee amount goes in the breeder’s pocket.
So, if the yearling sells for $10,000 and the first $8,000 goes to the breeder the remaining $2,000 goes to the stallion owner. Regardless of what the stud fee was. Most of the stud fees on horses that Spendthrift have under this plan stand for $5-15,000. And has helped increase the size of a “bubble” stallion’s book substantially. The “booking fee” is not applied to the stud fee. It is a minor fee anyway. This marketing scheme has pissed off a number of high profile stallion farms in KY
There are several service fee contracts written. Live Foal Stands and Nurses, LFSN payable as written 30 days after the foal is born. LFSN but is payable usually in October or November of the year bred. It is still a “live foal guarantee” and if there is no foal or if the foal can not stand and nurse the money is refunded.
Depending on one’s relationship with a stallion farm it is possible to get a “pay out of proceeds” contract. The stallion fee is paid from the sales proceeds at auction and or privately. But the breeder is responsible for any “short fall”.
Depending on the strength of a mare’s pedigree it is possible to get a “foal share” contract with the stallion owner. The mare owner “puts up” the mare and the stallion owner “puts up” the stallion fee. The proceeds from the sale of the resulting foals is generally split 50-50. I only do this with very expensive stallions that we can’t afford/risk on our own.
Some contracts are written with the stud fee payable upon signing of the contract but if the mare does not have a foal you do not get your money back but are allowed to breed to the stallion the following year at no fee. “No foal, right of return”.
Then there is No Guarantee, NG contracts. The fee is paid when the contract is signed and only guarantees that the stallion is fertile and will be available and capable of covering the mare generally at least 3 times. If the mare is covered at least 3 times but does not take, comes up barren after the last cover or end of the breeding season, aborts, slips, has a foal with issues etc. There is no refund. Risky yes but this type of fee is priced much lower then LFSN. NG used to be quite the norm on high profile, high demand stallions “pre-market” crash. I don’t think there are any horses that stand for a NG fee only these days.
You can obtain “live foal” insurance but the premium can be pretty hefty.
The above are pretty much the standard contracts but some stallions service contracts can be negotiated. Especially by those of us who have a “relationship” with the standing farm and or are booking an “exceptional mare”.
“Small breeders” would be wise to use an agent when booking a mare. Good agents have the “strength” and a relationship with stallion farms to be able to get some pretty hefty fee discounts. And or are “in the know” of what can or can not be asked/had.
Yes, there are people who don’t pay the fees owed for what ever reason. The resulting horse can not be registered. But that person may have a very difficult time getting a LFSN contract in the future. It’s a small world and easy to get black listed.
Small regional stallion farms, “back yard” farms charge a nominal booking fee applied towards the stud fee. But these are usually very “marginal” at best, stallions.
I am not directly involved in breeding, but a “live foal guarantee” had ben a standard part of live cover breeding, especially TBs, as long as I can remember.
Not so common for AI.
I have only seen it ( LFSN) in Thoroughbreds, LFG is pretty standard with fresh cooled AI stallions. Frozen AI it varies with terms of contract, often does not have a LFG…but depends on the stallion.
When we bred TB’s for racing we did the “fee paid when live foal stands and nurses”, but I can’t tell you how many times we got screwed out of the fee!!! If people didn’t think the foal was “worthy”…they just didn’t pay!! Even when we were breeding sport horses we had one owner send a van for their three mares and just “forgot” to send a check for fees and board…then told us that the “mares didn’t get in foal anyway” so never paid anything!! But a year and a half later they were selling foals "sired by a rare painted TB stallion - our Puchi’s Rambo! Then we switched to cash at time of breeding - “live foal return guarantee”. Even with that we’ve had problems. We used to allow the mares to be exchanged if the breeder chose. The LAST outside mare we bred tried to kill us all at breeding time and we refused to cover her again. Woman said she’d send another mare…decided not to breed the first year, second year they decided to show the replacement mare and the third year they wanted their stud fee back!!! We no longer breed any mares but our own!!!
[QUOTE=Janet;7594714]
I am not directly involved in breeding, but a “live foal guarantee” had ben a standard part of live cover breeding, especially TBs, as long as I can remember.
Not so common for AI.[/QUOTE]
I can assure you that a Live Foal Guarantee is the industry standard for AI/shipped semen. Where it will vary is for frozen semen. 
You’re likely not going to see a “booking fee only until stands and nurses” for the warmblood/pony breeding industry, as most of the foals are bred for the hunter/jumper and dressage circuits. No registration or papers are required to, for example, show in the hunter ring…so some dishonest Mare Owners would skip out on paying for their stud fees. As a result, the majority of those Stallion Owners charge for the stud fee up front, before semen is ever shipped to the mare.
In the Thoroughbred industry though, you cannot race a Thoroughbred without papers, so Mare Owners are glad to pay the stud fee once the foal is on the ground so they can obtain a breeding certificate and register their foal.
Additionally, stud fees for racing TBs are much higher than sport breeding.
A few years ago, a WB breeders with two lovely young stallions offered no stud fee til foal stands and nurses. MO just paid collections/shipping costs. Luckily for her, not that many people took her up on the offer and those that did screwed her.
And yes, while the money was owed, none of the MOs were in her state and even with judgments, she still would have been out more money trying to recover the money.
For 2015, I will be revising my contract to state a “return guarantee” as opposed to a “live foal guarantee”. I’ve have 3 or 4 people over the last few years who have tried to demand their stud fees back when the mares failed to conceive after 4 or more attempts. Of course, these are the same people who did not want to do breeding soundness exams and who don’t use repro vets. So, I will be clarifying what the contract says and I may have an additional page where they have to once again state that they have READ the contract and understand the terms they are agreeing to.
I am leasing a stallion to breed my own mares, but also have the option to stand him at stud for public. I think I am charging s very reasonable fee for what the stallion has produced, but am doing live cover only. I thought it was odd that people would say that they didn’t pay until foal stands and nurses and I don’t want to be stuck with non paying people. And you would be shocked at the amount of people that are mad that I am requiring a current culture before coming in for breeding, and that they follow all vaccination schedules for the mare and are kept off fescue hay.
Actually, those of us who have stallions, especially ones who have TB stallions, would not be surprised at all!!
On mares I ship to, I’ve gotten to the point that I explain culturing is to save them money as if the mare isn’t clean she won’t settle, but if they want to gamble then it’s on them. For a mare coming here, no options. Not risking his health! Period.
[QUOTE=cyriz’s mom;7595322]
For 2015, I will be revising my contract to state a “return guarantee” as opposed to a “live foal guarantee”. I’ve have 3 or 4 people over the last few years who have tried to demand their stud fees back when the mares failed to conceive after 4 or more attempts. Of course, these are the same people who did not want to do breeding soundness exams and who don’t use repro vets. So, I will be clarifying what the contract says and I may have an additional page where they have to once again state that they have READ the contract and understand the terms they are agreeing to.[/QUOTE]
We offer a refund of the stud fee if the mare is unable to conceive, a foal dies, at say 12 hours old, and the Mare Owner doesn’t want to try and rebreed…or the stallion is unfit for service. I’m already taking money from them for collection and shipping fees, and they’ve got a ton of expenses at their end already. My opinion, I have no right to keep a $1,500 stud fee when they didn’t end up with an “end product”.
To give ideas about different modells:
Warmbloods: over here we pay upfront the full fee, no collection fees, no boking fees. Straight Forward and easy. In case mare does not take a credit note for next year for half of the fee. Fee in general is lower I think than in US. This makes it easier for the stallion owners. No LFG hence the credit note often to be transfered to other stallions of same station.
New model over here: A fee to pay upfront (about 30-50%) and rest in autumn when are is pregnant. If not pregnant rest is only not due if a vet certificate is delivered.
Has anyone ever had a “new owner” contact you 8-10 years after a breeding - that was not paid for and flatly denied by the mare owner - and wanted now, to register the horse “by your stallion, that I just bought”??? We did!!!
A friend of mine had recently. He told the new owners of that horse: Your Problem: Your either pay the fee or no papers. In that case a mare it worked he got his money…
Kind of off topic, but…
Stallion owners require a clean culture on the mares coming in, and well should. But do you provide the mare owners with a report on semen quality?
If the mares are good to go but not getting in foal, do you ever look at your stallions?
[QUOTE=gumtree;7594655]
If you are referring to Thoroughbred stallions covering TB mares for racing and or sales the “booking fee” is a relatively new marketing scheme being employed by several KY stallion farms. The most notable being Spendthrift. Which advertises “share the upside” rather “share the risk” on some of their stallions mainly “freshmen” or those who’s first foals are of racing age… The service contract/fee is based on live foal stands and nurses, LFSN. When the foal is born and registered the foal certificate is issued to the breeder but is sent to the stallion owner if the resulting foal is going to be sold at auction. With Spendthrift stallions the first $X dollars from the sale goes to the breeder, then the next X amount, X being the stud fee goes to the stallion owner. Anything above the stud fee amount goes in the breeder’s pocket.
So, if the yearling sells for $10,000 and the first $8,000 goes to the breeder the remaining $2,000 goes to the stallion owner. Regardless of what the stud fee was. Most of the stud fees on horses that Spendthrift have under this plan stand for $5-15,000. And has helped increase the size of a “bubble” stallion’s book substantially. The “booking fee” is not applied to the stud fee. It is a minor fee anyway. This marketing scheme has pissed off a number of high profile stallion farms in KY
There are several service fee contracts written. Live Foal Stands and Nurses, LFSN payable as written 30 days after the foal is born. LFSN but is payable usually in October or November of the year bred. It is still a “live foal guarantee” and if there is no foal or if the foal can not stand and nurse the money is refunded.
Depending on one’s relationship with a stallion farm it is possible to get a “pay out of proceeds” contract. The stallion fee is paid from the sales proceeds at auction and or privately. But the breeder is responsible for any “short fall”.
Depending on the strength of a mare’s pedigree it is possible to get a “foal share” contract with the stallion owner. The mare owner “puts up” the mare and the stallion owner “puts up” the stallion fee. The proceeds from the sale of the resulting foals is generally split 50-50. I only do this with very expensive stallions that we can’t afford/risk on our own.
Some contracts are written with the stud fee payable upon signing of the contract but if the mare does not have a foal you do not get your money back but are allowed to breed to the stallion the following year at no fee. “No foal, right of return”.
Then there is No Guarantee, NG contracts. The fee is paid when the contract is signed and only guarantees that the stallion is fertile and will be available and capable of covering the mare generally at least 3 times. If the mare is covered at least 3 times but does not take, comes up barren after the last cover or end of the breeding season, aborts, slips, has a foal with issues etc. There is no refund. Risky yes but this type of fee is priced much lower then LFSN. NG used to be quite the norm on high profile, high demand stallions “pre-market” crash. I don’t think there are any horses that stand for a NG fee only these days.
You can obtain “live foal” insurance but the premium can be pretty hefty.
The above are pretty much the standard contracts but some stallions service contracts can be negotiated. Especially by those of us who have a “relationship” with the standing farm and or are booking an “exceptional mare”.
“Small breeders” would be wise to use an agent when booking a mare. Good agents have the “strength” and a relationship with stallion farms to be able to get some pretty hefty fee discounts. And or are “in the know” of what can or can not be asked/had.
Yes, there are people who don’t pay the fees owed for what ever reason. The resulting horse can not be registered. But that person may have a very difficult time getting a LFSN contract in the future. It’s a small world and easy to get black listed.
Small regional stallion farms, “back yard” farms charge a nominal booking fee applied towards the stud fee. But these are usually very “marginal” at best, stallions.[/QUOTE]
LFSN is only a contract payable when foal stands & nurses. LFG 9/1, 10/1, 11/1, or other date is something else entirely, where the fee is payable on that date but refundable if the foal does not stand & nurse.
[QUOTE=CDE Driver;7596159]
Kind of off topic, but…
Stallion owners require a clean culture on the mares coming in, and well should. But do you provide the mare owners with a report on semen quality?
If the mares are good to go but not getting in foal, do you ever look at your stallions?[/QUOTE]
In Thoroughbreds, at least, and with most major stud farms, all dismount samples go under the microscope. I’ve had a stallion who appeared to ejaculate, but clearly hadn’t, based on the dismount. The staff ran after the van driver as he loaded her up, and she was brought back.
So, in short, yes.
I asked a similar question before but it’s still not clear to me:
If you buy a mare in foal at an auction, say a large Thoroughbred auction, is the stallion fee paid? Does the answer to this question depend on the auction house? How does the new owner get registration papers when the foal is born, that is, what paperwork would the new owner submit to the Jockey Club in order to register the baby?
