Do what, now?
Do you think that Jimmy should have overfaced the horse and/or rider for his own and the clinic participants’ gratification, or do you agree with me, that he was correct in telling the rider that they were not yet ready to attempt the exercise?
If you believe the former, I will be happy to ignore you.
Let’s all take a deep breath together 
Jealoushe misunderstood your response and thought you were claiming you had seen Wofford beat a horse. The “Ignore” was an edit to ignore the post after I pointed out that you were referring to him telling a rider they needed to readjust their goals, not a personal attack on you.
Oops, nope, this was not a referral to the original incident but to a post about someone backing a horse out of a trailer with an emergency sort of manoevre and wondering how that would appear if it had been videoed.
As a non-eventer who casually follows the sport, I started reading this thread because I knew of Mark Todd and had admired his riding.I watched the long version of the clip. When he first approached the horse with the branch, I thought "That is it? That is what people are upset about? That is not much…) Then I saw the second part where he repeatedly whipped the horse.
My reaction was disappointment, sorrow, and confusion. I was disappointed that MT had no better training tools and resorted to whipping. Sad for the horse who seemed to be trying. And confused about what MT thought he accomplished. So he beat the horse into the water. It doesnt really help the rider do it. And equine logic being what it is, the horse may have decided that being near the water is too painful and to be avoided at all costs. I have seen peole strong arm and beat a horse onto a trailer, but at least that had a legitimate goal - had to get the horse on to go home - though not a good training moment. This horse didnt need to jump off the bank into the water to get home and this was far from a good training moment.
Thank you
@salty I deleted my reply to you as I misunderstood your post and replaced my comment with “ignore”.
The posts get confusing because I have someone on Ignore who for some reason won’t stop replying to me and it’s jumbling up the order of everything I’m seeing here.
Nope, I haven’t responded to you since we were speaking directly earlier in the thread. And I’m not replying to you here either, according to this forum layout. You’re just so ready to jump on someone else that you can’t actually read for context. I’m not to blame, though as you may try.
I’m not an eventer, but have spent a good chunk of my riding life at Pony Club and later eventing-oriented barns, so I’ve always felt like I have a little window into some of that world. Seeing this video was disappointing but, as someone old enough to still have been brought up with the idea of “make them obey” as a normal part of riding and training(I’m in my mid-30’s), not surprising. I’m not a naturally aggressive person but have done my fair share of getting rougher with horses than I should have because I was told that this is how I “should” do it. I’m not proud of it and embarrassed by how I handles some situations but…all we can do is learn to be better.
I don’t ride or interact with horses that way now. I have to say one of my biggest lightbulb moments was reading a Denny Emerson post (yes, I know he’s problematic) where he described dealing with horses scared of new things on the trail. His approach is to allow them to look as long as they need to until they figure out that they can keep getting closer and the “thing” freaking them out isn’t a bear set to eat them. So instead of kicking and/or hitting them until they walk towards the scary object (how I was taught to deal with that as a kid), you allow them to give whatever it is the hairy eyeball until they recognize it’s not a threat on their own. I use it a lot now and…it works. Most horses need some reassurance and time to think through a situation they perceive as potentially dangerous. If you give it to them, they gain confidence, which is the ultimate goal of training, right?
That isn’t to say that there isn’t a time and place for a well timed smack with a crop, etc. As a trainer once told me, horses kick each other much harder than we can hit them—and sometimes, a bit of pressure (with a very clear and obvious release, and not escalating to the point of fear) is warranted and what the horse understands. You can’t teach everything to every horse with only lots of pats and treats, as much as I would love if that was the case. The key is to seeing which approach is warranted in which situation. Beating a frightened horse over a jump? Not the best plan of action. A bored horse nipping me hard enough to bruise the skin through multiple layers of clothing because he thinks we can play together like horses do? That gets a bop (not a punch, not multiple hits) on the nose to get the message across that I’m a mare that does not appreciate teeth on me. Obviously the overwhelming majority of our interactions with horses should be on the positive reinforcement side…but obviously, that just isn’t going to be the case 100% of the time. I do generally think that unless you are in an actual life or death situation, once you’ve had to go past 2-3 firm smacks to encourage forward, you’re no longer dealing with a problem that aggressive reinforcement will solve.
Just my two very amateur cents.
For those of you who haven’t seen this yet, the background on the horse & rider, as well as longer video and screenshots of correspondence were posted on Facebook.
Here’s the text. You can visit her page if you want to see the images. https://www.facebook.com/phoebe.buckley.1
Please note this is NOT MY INTERPRETATION. This is from Phoebe Buckley who I believe owns the horse in question.
So I’ve thought long and hard about posting this video… But you guys know me!
I’ll die on my sword rather than sit comfy on a fence.
So here is the full context for you -
We have a 7year old horse, who has run 13/14 times at BE competitions.
So not a young horse that’s never seen water.
The rider has made it very clear (before the lesson and on social media) that the horse happily and confidently goes through and jumps in to water. But won’t step down in to water, she asked this to be addressed in the lesson.
So the rider knew there was a problem and wanted to try and sort it.
Sir Mark Todd does what every good trainer/horseman would do, he gives the horse time to get his feet wet first - to build it up.
The horse approaches the step, Sir Mark uses a ‘branch’ to smack the horse once and then makes a lot of noises to encourage the horse in- which works, the horse jumps down the step well.
The rider comes round again, the rider does and the horse jumps down well and confidently. Sir Mark can be seen in the background ready to help if needed, but he doesn’t need to so he stands back and leaves the horse to it.
Now the rider comes round for the third time, it should now be a given that the horse jumps in bravely and well. I mean, why wouldn’t it?
The horse comes round then plan and simply says NO. The rider is slow to react, I honestly believe 2 well timed snacks down the shoulder and it would have gone. But she doesn’t and Sir Mark steps in and assist’s, because that’s what he’s there for it’s for it? That’s what he’s being paid for? Because we already know this is a long standing well published issue the rider hasn’t managed to sort on her own.
Because the horse has been allowed to say NO, it needs firmer handling, you can hear Sir Mark telling her to keep her eyes up, think forwards etc…. 
After a few snacks and a lot of noise the horse goes in.
The rider, continued the lesson, posted positive reviews afterwards and had an issue she couldn’t sort, sorted.
So why the offence 2 years later?
Why lie on social media that the horse was approaching the water for the first time on the edited video?
Where are the photos of its whip marks etc?
Another genuine question -
What is the difference between a flimsy branch, a whip or a lunge whip or say the type of whip stewards/starters use at the start of a race to make sure horses jump off?
I truly believe this proves Sir Mark was not in fact mindlessly and needlessly beating a horse, it proves he was correcting a horse with a long standing problem of thinking it was ok to do something well then say NO.
Isn’t that proper and correct training? Giving a horse chances, letting them get confident but not letting them take the p**s?
Does this mean we have to allow horse to say no? Say if they don’t want to come in from the field, stand for the farrier, not leave the yard or even allow you to ride them?
Again, maybe I’m right. Maybe I’m wrong.
But this video certainly doesn’t tally with all that the things the rider has claimed online.
And I am not victim shaming, I’m putting both sides out there. We need to put across both sides in a balanced way.
Not just be happy to ruin someone’s life because of a 2yr old edited video.
edit: Sorry @Bogie , this isn’t aimed at you, I realize now this is the horse’s owner’s thoughts.
I’ll bite on this one - but in an ideal world, yes. A horse should be allowed to say “no” to any and all of those. The part you’re missing though, is that they shouldn’t feel like they need to or even just want to say no in the first place. That is only achieved through consistent and thorough training, and a huge mindset shift on the rider’s part.
There are definitely times where we simply have to pull the “I know better than you” card and force a horse to do something to keep them or yourself safe, but whenever possible, the most humane and best training methods are to encourage the horse to participate in the activity of their own accord.
So if your horse doesn’t want to come in from the field, start asking how have you made working with you more appealing (or to use a training buzzword, reinforcing) to them than standing out in the field with their friends (do you bond with your horse, groom them a way they like, even treats)? How have you made standing in the field more reinforcing for them (regularly making them work to exhaustion, uncomfortable grooming, poor saddle fit, generally poor experiences in hand/under saddle)?
Or with farriery - how have you trained your horse to stand quietly with one foot up? Have you reinforced them for standing quietly with their foot up and therefore made them want to do that? or just demanded they do it no matter what? Have you worked on it when you’ve got all the time in the world? Or left it until the week (or maybe even just the day!) the farrier is coming out?
Part of force-free training is constantly asking yourself, what is my horse finding value in? and how can I shift that value to something else? Additionally, how can I make it easier for my horse to find the answer I want?
Many years ago I read a book called “Horses never lie”. There are lots of great training anecdotes in there, but one of them was about training horses to safely bring themselves in for lunch. Instead of having the staff go bring each horse in (time consuming!), they had someone let one horse up at a time from the corral. If the horse went any faster than a walk, a staff member would catch them at the barn and go tie them to the fence - no grain that day. If the horse walked calmly up, they were allowed to have lunch. I think the author mentions it took less than a week before every horse had figured it out. In this scenario, the value for the horses was in the grain, but the trainer wanted the value to be in walking calmly up to the barn. To shift the value, they made the part the horses didn’t care about (walking to the barn) a contingency of getting their grain. They also made it easier for the horses to succeed by only letting them up one at a time so they didn’t feel pressured to race each other or feed off of each other’s excitement.
You’ll also notice that at every point along the way, the horses had the option to say “no” either by staying in the corral or trotting up to the barn. It was not without consequences (no grain for lunch), but neither was their compliance achieved via violence and force.
This is NOT my interpretation. This from the woman who owns the horse and was there.
Not me. This is from the owner of the horse.
OMG sorry i get it now. i’ll delete my snarky replies lol.
No problem! I realize now that I should have been very clear. This was posted on Facebook by the owner of the horse in the video. If you look at the link, she has posted a longer video.
Phoebe Buckley is the owner?
Glad I’m not the only one having problems understand the posts lol
yes to all of this though!!
Yes, Phoebe Buckley is the owner of the horse. She posted this on HER FB page. I thought it would be interesting to add her first hand knowledge to the thread (although I’m beginning to regret that impulse now 
)
None of my horses have ever been whipped through a water complex. Or had anyone chase them with a branch.
I didn’t realize she was the owner, interesting.
I try to train my horses with positive reinforcement and being patient with them learning but there IS a time for a come to jesus moment in life sometimes. No, it won’t work if they are scared or unsure.
My homebred was well schooled to stand for the farrier. He was even hot fit. Then the farrier tried to fix a shoe on a front foot when he had an abscess on the other. I was not there. It did not go well and the farrier gave up. Completely justified on my horse’s part. (ouch!!) But then he decided the whole farrier process could be shoved somewhere else. Over multiple times, he got worse w/ shoeing his HIND feet. He was exceptionally good w/ timing with snatching his foot just as the farrier was getting ready to nail. We were patient. He got treats when he was good. I corrected him w/ a tap on a chain or a bop. He just got progressively worse. Then the farrier gave up and said “we will need drugs”. Well, I did the John Lyons method of “I will kill you for the next 30 seconds” which on a 1400 lb horse is a smallish human yanking on a chain over the nose, a few smacks on the shoulder and some yelling. My horse’s eyes got really big. He then proceeded to stand like an angel and has ever since.
That’s my story. It’d probably be seen as abusive. And yes, I tried carrots, and scratches and every thing else first. It made no difference. He decided he didn’t want to do it… I made it clear that compliance was a better option.
Sometimes, they only understand a bit of a correction. When I watched my mare bounce her baby w/ a bite (that left no mark) and the baby proceeded to act respectfully that I decided horses DO understand corporal punishment when it comes to having a bit of respect. I’m just putting this story here because some seem to believe that there is never a need for a strong correction. That just isn’t true all of the time.
FWIW, I see nothing to suggest that Phoebe Buckley owns/owned the grey mare.
She is simply narrating her experience as a participant in the same lesson. She clearly champions MT and has a go at the rider of the grey (in a rather public and ugly way, IMO).
I think the confusion comes from her saying, “We have a 7year old horse…”
I do not believe she means that in the sense that she and whomsoever she would include in “we” have a horse. I think she’s using that rhetorical device of saying, “Okay, here’s a video. We have a [subject] doing [action]. Here’s my interpretation.”
The fact that Ms. Buckley includes screen shots of the rider with the grey from the rider’s SM and marks them up in order to further have a go at the rider also suggests that Ms. Buckley does not own the grey. She and the owner of the grey just happened to be in the same clinic.
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