Oops! Mark Todd cruelty

[Mander]

What you’re describing is the root of LIMA training, in case you’re wanting a name for it!

It stands for Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive and the general principal is you follow a hierarchy of training methods, each an increase in invasiveness (think “contraptions”) and aversiveness. You only move to the next step in the hierarchy when you’ve exhausted your options at the current level.

The hierarchy is as follows:

Wellness - is the horse healthy? sound? have any pain or nutritional needs that need handling?

Antecedent arrangements - in dog training, we talk a lot about environment management. For example, don’t want Fido to get in the trash? Put the trash somewhere Fido can’t reach it. Similarly, don’t want your horse to chew on the crossties? put tennis balls around the latches so they can’t reach them.

Positive reinforcement - rewards for doing good things.

Differential reinforcement of alternative behaviors - examples include redirection that generally precludes the undesired behavior. For example, if you’re riding a horse that tries to get very strong and fast, so instead you ask them to do lots of serpentines, circles, odd turns, etc that make it difficult (if not impossible) to get strong and fast while doing.

Extinction, negative reinforcement and negative punishment - Extinction works by removing/no longer providing reinforcement for a behavior you don’t want. I think a lot of “riding through it” falls into this category - you ignore the bucks/rears/whatever and then reward when they finally stop. Negative reinforcement is taking a bad thing away (such as pressure from a spur) when the right response is given, and negative punishment is taking a good thing away when the horse does something wrong (pull a carrot out from under their nose if they try to get it from you too aggressively).

Positive punishment - for example, hitting a horse with a tree branch when they refuse.

If your’e interested, here’s a link that has some good examples (although they’re all dog training examples, but still).

FWIW, I think it’s a fair system to follow and has been pretty well adopted in the dog community. That being said, problems arise when people either get impatient and escalate steps too quickly, not giving them a chance to work, or skip them altogether. Additionally, sometimes people forget to start at the beginning for each new behavior and instead just say “oh well environment management didn’t work with X, so I’m going to skip it for Y”.

[Frolic]

This, his record suggests rider owner

[libgrrl]

I know all about it. I’m all about it in dog training, less convinced it works as well w/horses. We have some R+ horse trainers around here that have started with homebreds – so we’ll see. I think it is potentially fabulous w/trailer loading, standing at a mounting block etc. And if you are still going to ride, I don’t see how negative reinforcement (I know my quadrants!) won’t still be a part of it. And this is why I don’t use a clicker with my dog – for him, it is aversive.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

The screenshots seem distasteful. It’s getting more Rashomon-like by the moment, with social media obfuscating, rather than providing more clarity.

I do agree with Phoebe Buckley (again, speaking as myself, an ignorant armchair trainer) that a smack from the rider would have likely nudged the horse forward, and (again, my non-Olympian opinion), I wish he’d bellowed out “use your bloody stick” a few strides out, rather than used the tree.

But I also wish we had more of a culture in our sport and society where someone who was uncomfortable with how a clinic went down could confront the trainer and feel “heard.”

I guess the one thing we can now all agree on is the horse isn’t a mare, since his name is Harry?

[chai]

I don’t care how famous a trainer is, or if people dream up fancy names for behavior in a disingenuous attempt to mask cruelty, there is no reason to beat a horse like that. Watching the video, it is clear that the horse had done what his rider asked repeatedly, and stopped briefly to look at what was being asked when a new approach was presented…and somehow that merits getting the crap beat out of him from behind with a switch?? No, I’m not a 5 * anything but I’ve had horses for over 50 years and it is disappointing not only to see a well respected trainer making an example that whipping a horse like that is ok, and worse, the people in the video who are laughing, although it appears the laughter dies away as he continues to beat the poor horse.

[FitzE]

Agreed. The screen shots and the way she goes after a fellow student in the clinic is extremely distasteful. Anyone who starts their screed with such an embarrassing, self-congratulatory characterisation of herself (utterly apropos of nothing at all to come) already gets an eye roll from me. When she bleats on and on simply to build up a BNT and knock down a young rider, she seals the bad first impression.

MT doesn’t need the build up and the rider didn’t need the tear down.

Badly done, Phoebe. Badly done.

[subk]

I would suggest to you that horses are not dogs.

Dogs have over a thousand years of breeding to be companion animals and to socially interact with humans. They have a much stronger innate drive to seek praise and to please than horses.

Yes we need to do positive reinforcement with horses, but the reality is for most horses the “reward” is simply a release of pressure. Often it’s simply riding quietly with the least amount of interference not “praise and reward” as you would think of it with dogs. My standard poo would have a very negative response in training if my “reward” was simply and unemotional removal of pressure.

And when you talk about “environmental management” you seemed to have missed that our training is precisely to get performance in a stressful environment we have no control over. Yes I can and should train in some environments I have control over–but this concept can fall apart pretty quickly if you aren’t more broad minded about the challenges and how to prepare for them.

I’m sure there are many valuable things to learn in cross species training, but it’s not as simple and as translatable as it seems you are trying to make it.

[Mander]

@libgrrl

And if you are still going to ride, I don’t see how negative reinforcement (I know my quadrants!) won’t still be a part of it

LIMA still allows for negative reinforcement, just not as an initial step. Riding wise, I also think there’s a distinction to be drawn between using tools to communicate, and using them as aversives/R- training. I can apply my leg as an aid (just as I use my voice), or I can apply it in such a way that it is uncomfortable and the horse is seeking a release.

[Mander]

It’s not “simple” and in fact, one of my earlier posts in this thread commented on how it can be difficult to translate from training dogs to training horses because they aren’t the same. Fortunately, the benefits of this type of training haven’t been exhibited in just dogs, but is also used widely amongst zoos for cooperative care and enrichment of otherwise wild animals. Hell, even Beezie Madden has used it with Judgment to train him to jump water. Just because it demands creativity, or doesn’t look exactly the same doesn’t mean that it cannot be done.

@subk

And when you talk about “environmental management” you seemed to have missed that our training is precisely to get performance in a stressful environment we have no control over. Yes I can and should train in some environments I have control over–but this concept can fall apart pretty quickly if you aren’t more broad minded about the challenges and how to prepare for them.

As far as this goes, I haven’t missed it. But 1) you only stay at environment management until you can no longer do that (i.e. you have no control over the environment or the behavior isn’t the result of an environmental factor) and 2) training isn’t something that is completed overnight. Top riders don’t take their 3 year old horses and throw them in the biggest, noisiest arena they can, under the brightest lights with the loudest music and demand that they perform to perfection. You start small and work until you’re doing well, and then you build. People who start their young horses in a round pen with solid walls to minimize distractions until they’re able to focus appropriately outside the round pen aren’t preventing their horses from eventually being able to be ridden in open fields (which is basically what you’re suggesting). There is nothing about LIMA training that says you cannot train an animal to perform in high-pressure, uncontrollable environments.

[libgrrl]

How about a lunge whip while using a lunge line when starting babies? I suppose that is pressure, although I certainly never hit them with it, just “directed” their quarters out to the edge of the circle. Training was (I thought) low pressure, and largely established verbal commands (with lots of praise) when they got it. Once I was aboard it was wither scritches, no cookies.

Oh yeah, no round pen either. Traditional lunge in a triangle – lunge attached to the bridle (threaded over the top and attached to the opposite ring of the bit) and lunge whip “driving” (saying that loosely) behind. Some space needs to be maintained for the safety of the trainer.

[Mander]

I’m unsure what your question is here. Are you asking me where I think a lunge whip lands on the spectrum of cue vs aversive tool? or if your training is “LIMA compliant”?

[libgrrl]

Probably the former. I am curious about what you would think of the lunge whip as a pressure/directing tool. I confess that I am a bit of a skeptic for this type of training (and I am quite familiar with it) since situations for horses are much more variable than dogs in so many ways…

[Djones]

I know I went somewhere else earlier, but can we please leave dogs out of it?

[libgrrl]

I agree – sorry. I deal with LIMA elsewhere. I’m a skeptic (so far) when it comes to horses.

[Mander]

Personally, I think when used judiciously and correctly, it can be a cue. I’ll also say, however, that it can be a very fine line between using as a cue and using as an aversive tool (and obviously in extreme cases, as a punishment). In reality though, I think most people begin by using it as an aversive, and then it eventually becomes a cue. I’m not sure I’ve ever met someone who has trained in such a way that it is purely a cue from start to finish.

Before I go further, I do want to clarify that I’m not saying “lunge whips are evil and if you use them you’re a terrible human being and abuse your horse!” or that I think people must adhere perfectly to LIMA. I hope in 50 years I can say “I have all the answers and this is the perfect and most ethical way to train horses” but I’m not there right now. So far be it from me to critique progress in favor of perfection. But for sake of self-improvement (which I hope we all strive for), and also for the future of our sport, I think it is important to regularly stop and consider the function of our training methods to see how we might make changes to be more humane and ethical, so I’m glad to have this discussion.

Now that that’s out of the way - I would say that most people that I’ve run into use lunge whips in such a way that it’s definitely considered an aversive. They may not hit the horse with it, but they pop it loudly or hiss it through the air to elicit what is, at its root, a fearful reaction from the horse. Of course, that reaction may be anywhere from a mild “I’m just going to meander away from that weird thing” to “oh #*%& I’m getting out of here!!!”, but the foundation of it is that the whip is a negative thing and the horse wants to get away from it. Again, to be clear, if you pop a whip behind a horse I’m not going to go squawking “ABUSE! ABUSE!”, though strictly speaking it’s still negative reinforcement.

I think it’s feasible to truly use it as a cue, not an aversive, but it would definitely require some additional training that most people would rather skip. If you were of a mind to really follow through with that though, there’s no reason to use a lunge whip and could trade it out for something like a hand signal or voice cue that wouldn’t carry the risk of being misused in a fit of frustration (we’re all human and have had moments we’d rather forget) and also wouldn’t require any preliminary desensitization if the horse was initially fearful of it (as some are with whips).

[Jealoushe]

That’s how I read it too.

[ljm824]

This discussion has really boggled my mind. I’ve actually been blocked on an OTTB trainer’s FB page because I’m advocating (politely) for horses not to be beaten repeatedly with a switch. Multiple well known names are coming out in support of MT’s actions and I can only think that they too must be hitting horses repeatedly during some portion of training for some horses.

[OverandOnward]

Direct link to the schooling video … this is what I see. It looks worse to these eyes than the shorter clip. IMO.

Sorry you have to take out the spaces to put it together, because FB. Highlight whole thing, copy & paste to other window, it should come up.

https://www.facebook.com/
1831655679/videos/pcb.10216788128015489/667251508029806

Rider & horse do 2 passes up the slope, then 2 passes down the slope, then final pass down the bank.

All passes are very positive for horse & rider except the final one to the down bank. Rider shows a decent seat imo. Feet a bit in front in chair position, very useful for safety if one isn’t sure how the horse will act.

Before the second pass up the slope beside bank, MT already has the long switch in hand. Wait, what? Horse & rider are going well, positive, forward!

Rider strikes me as suddenly tentative as horse once again trots through in reverse direction for the 2nd pass up the slope. But horse is all good and positive.

Rider gives MT a major eye coming to circle back around, although her face is away from the camera. Rider maybe already nervous about that switch that seems longer than the horse in the hands of MT prowling the bank?

Horse is ears-up and positively coming forward. See no issues there.

Horse comes around and this is the 1st pass going down the slope (not the bank). Although the horse is moving forward and seems to be going well, nonetheless MT chases it swinging the switch. Now horse is suddenly a bit backward on its balance and worried, although it continues forward and down the slope.

Why is MT doing that when the horse is going well? Once the horse hears/sees the switch, it seems suddenly worried.

Crowd gives a big laugh at MT chasing with the switch even though the horse was going well. Why ???

Horse canters around for second pass down the slope, going positively, ears forward, rider with a good seat. Horse canters right on down the slope (not the bank) with no issues. Even gives a little forward jump into the water.

But again MT runs after the horse chasing it, though this time without the switch. Horse notices and seems up a notch of nervous about that.

Throughout, rider may be experiencing MT as a distraction (can’t know for sure). Instead of maintaining focus on where she is going, she keeps looking over at MT to see what he is doing. The horse is not giving her any issues at all. She’s riding well and he’s traveling well. IMO.

Horse and rider canter around for pass #3, this time down the bank. Again, there have been no issues from the horse to this point. No. Issues.

But now MT is lining up to do his thing with the switch. He’s got it in hand, he’s positioning to launch like a coyote after a jackrabbit as they go by. And that is exactly what he does. He clearly (to me) doesn’t care what the horse is doing. He just knows what he’s doing - SWITCH.

This time the horse is giving MT the hairy eyeball on the canter circle to the bank … but no matter, the horse is moving well and forward and responding to the rider who is riding forward.

No problems from horse or rider that I see on the 3rd approach from before the trees, other than minor signs of being worried about MT & switch.

The last part is almost too painful to watch and describe. After a positive approach, MT springs forward with switch, rider suddenly eases off the leg, is anxious, horse is worried and anxious, stops at the top. Might have gone if only MT hasn’t acted the ass and sprung forward beating the horse?

And this is a fierce beating by MT. Not a few harmless swings. He swings again and again and again. I count 9 swats that connect. Most swats seeming to use all of his strength. The horse has gone forward before the 10th stroke can land, but MT is swinging anyway.

Rider is vocalizing something I can’t understand but her voice seems to be shaking. Horse is now seriously frightened … but I don’t think it is frightened of the down bank at all. Horse is not understanding the beating, the rider’s anxiety, MT’s aggressiveness. (And the closest brown horse behind is frightened enough to spook away from the beating.)

Horse finally just kind of slides off the bank into the water in not the safest way. Almost does a belly slide in. Just so scared to get away from the switch, rather than the positive forward goes the horse had been doing before the switch and the beating.

Cheers & laughter from some in the crowd. Others seem a bit frozen.

I can’t help thinking that if MT had stood back and encouraged the rider to look up, feet forward, land in the stirrups, it would all have gone fine. No way to know. But that potential looked good to me.

Maybe MT was over-prepped with all the talk about a stoppy horse and/or a stoppy rider. Thought he had to be pro-actively assertive. Don’t know.

I see zero excuses for MT’s behavior in this longer clip. It looks so much more damning than the short clip without the context.

Summary of last pass, down the bank:

• At 1:26 rider & horse cantering to bank, ears up, everything you could want. But MT is starting to charge forward with his switch regardless.
• At 1:27, after several positive strides, horse’s ears swing backwards to MT charging forward behind it. Everything changes. Horse goes from positive to brakes and hesitation.
• At 1:28 it’s going badly at the top of the bank and the beating goes into full swing. Horse scrambling and frightened. Rider seems afraid, but that’s hard to know. MT swings fiercely 10 times, connecting on all but the last swing.

Rider seems as confused as the horse. MT is delivering an unmerciful beating. Horse doesn’t know where to focus, MT jumping around behind it, the switch hitting it, the bank, the rider, the water.

This seems to me to be the classic mistake of making a horse more afraid of what’s behind it than it is focusing on going forward. Especially since this horse is already forward. Is MT’s strategy to chase the horse with a switch every time this rider and horse approach a down bank?

I don’t know why MT does what he does. I do think he knows better. It was a terrible example of what to do, in front of a lot of people who are clearly absorbing everything he says. The laughs indicate they are defaulting to MT’s actions. Although it seems to be a lot quieter while MT is beating this poor horse.

Worth noting this entire drama in this video played out in less than 2 minutes. That is not a lot of time for a rider to process and adjust if they are feeling uncertain about something. Or the horse to process something that they don’t feel good about. However, MT is a veteran Olympic caliber rider who makes quick decisions about what is going on in the moment.

That’s what I see. This is horrifying on MT’s part, and I don’t understand any part of his actions.

[KellyS]

I’ve seen Jimmy Wofford do it as well. Using a lunge whip to force a horse over jumps when it was clearly overfaced and not ready for that level in a clinic setting. This horse and rider didn’t have a positive experience and neither did many of the rest of us. The lunge whip cracking and panicked horse scrambling in an indoor arena completely freaked out other horses in the clinic session, including my own, who lost a lot of confidence and gained quite a bit of fear about jumping.

As I get older, I look back and think why do we place so much faith in these BNRs and BNTs to do right by our horses? They aren’t the ones dealing with the fallout of a bad lesson or clinic session. I’ve also been doing this long enough to realize that if you need to resort to such measures, you need to walk away from that training session or choose another career path. Just because it gets results doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate training technique.

If a horse and rider in a clinic are having such significant issues that the behavior on the video is warranted, excuse them from the session and either place them in a lower level group or refund their money.

[OverandOnward]

@KellyS

As I get older, I look back and think why do we place so much faith in these BNRs and BNTs to do right by our horses?

I learned the hard way not to sign up for every name clinician available.

And to be ready to excuse myself out, if it was the better choice. Only had to do that once. (So far.)