Oops! Mark Todd cruelty

[Salty]

I’m really sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with Jimmy. I have never seen him do anything like that. I was replying to someone who said that they wished that more instructors would say, “No, you and your horse are not ready for this exercise, so here’s an exercise that’s appropriate for you.”

I saw Jimmy do this on more than one occasion. He had a rider learn to canter a big circle on a hillside, before he’d even let her jump at all.

It makes me sad that your experience was so different from mine.

[FitzE]

This is a great breakdown of what I tried to express above. The attitude of horse and rider and their perfectly straightforward passes before the bank don’t give any indication of why MT went for the branch in the first place. Both horse and rider seemed positive, willing, and successful on all passes before the bank. MT himself seems calm and chatty.

You point out the most important bit: why did MT prep the branch AND advance towards the horse before they even got to the bank?

Related point speaking as a lawyer: No form liability release in the world would have protected MT if his running up behind a horse with a branch and hitting it would have resulted in injury to the horse or the rider (I don’t mean marks from the branch, I mean if the horse shied, scrambled, leaped, etc. and fell or the rider fell). So, it was a very bad choice of action from his own point of view as well.

[sportyspicepony]

Really interesting to see how other pros are now responding to this on social media…. Like “I support mark Todd” I haven’t even seen anyone viciously attacking him or even wanting to cancel him, maybe I’m just not seeing it but…. I think it’s gross for anyone to pretend like what he did was right or ok, and if you’re also a pro then that definitely changes my view of you. Two things can be true at once, mark Todd is still a valuable and respectable meMber of this community AND his actions that day were also egregious and ABUSIVE.

[NaturalSelection]

@KellyS
I saw Jimmy Wofford do this as well, at a drop into water with a beginner rider in 2006 using a longe whip. Can’t remember if he actually hit the horse, but cracking the whip repeatedly was plenty traumatic. In fact, I have a very distinct memory of him saying loudly and clearly to all the spectators that he didn’t want anyone taking video because he didn’t want this winding up on the Wide World of Sports. The horse had a terrible experience, the rider had a terrible experience. None of the trainers said anything. I was horrified, but didn’t say anything (early 20s amateur going Training at the time). It forever changed my opinion of Wofford and I never attended another one of his clinics. Similar to your post, the experience really made me rethink BNR/BNTs.

[fordtraktor]

I’ve been on the horse for something similar on a baby. After the usual was tried (leads, time, etc.) the longe whip was used and once the horse got his feet wet, never had issue ever again with the water. By the next clinic it was that horse giving the leads to the others in the water, so it isn’t necessarily a traumatic experience for a horse.

I think this board seems to forget that almost everything about horse training is negative reinforcement. Put your leg on? That is asking the horse to move away from pressure. Half halt? Same. It’s all pressure being added to the horse to get a response, and when the right response is achieved the pressure is removed. When to stop the pressure is never going to be a black and white line, but a judgment call.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Personal injury law is a different kettle of fish in the UK! Also, they have the NHS, so no hospital bills for humans, though I guess vet bills are a different story. (I know Todd is NZ, but I assume the clinic is in the UK where he is based out of.)

Todd has been through controversy before in '00, and weathered it, although in a less Internet-dominated world. This video, like the pentathlon meltdown and the lady-kicking-at-her horse, has become one of those massive pile-ons, so I guess it will take some time before it will be clear how this will affect his legacy.

I certainly didn’t like what I saw (as I hope I’ve made clear above) although I wish there was a better way to “do” debates about horse ethics and training than an online trial-by-fire. On the other hand, pre-cellphone videos, it’s clear much crazier shit went down, with no consequences for the perpetrators.

[Jealoushe]

@sportyspicepony

Really interesting to see how other pros are now responding to this on social media…. Like “I support mark Todd” I haven’t even seen anyone viciously attacking him or even wanting to cancel him, maybe I’m just not seeing it but…. I think it’s gross for anyone to pretend like what he did was right or ok, and if you’re also a pro then that definitely changes my view of you. Two things can be true at once, mark Todd is still a valuable and respectable meMber of this community AND his actions that day were also egregious and ABUSIVE.

My sentiments exactly. I’m not sure if it is happening elsewhere but I have not seen a single post anywhere calling out the cancellation of Mark Todd, yet the pros have to pipe in with their 2 cents holier than tho attitude because they are friends with Toddy and therefore know more than the rest of us. They are focusing on MT being cancelled and not the issue at hand.

My respect for a lot of UL riders has been dwindling for so long, the list gets smaller every year. It make my respect grow a lot for those who don’t condone this training, though.

[FitzE]

Not that different (speaking as a lawyer who began her career in London). The UK is also the 6th most litigious country in the world behind the US at #5. So, socialised medicine not withstanding (i.e., medical awards would be lower), I still wouldn’t want to be out there acting the fool and setting myself up to be sued by a clinic participant!!

What was the controversy in '00?

I agree that, historically, there have been little or no consequences for horrific behaviour. I am weary of the inevitable knee-jerk cries of “cancel culture” anytime anyone (but, in particular any man) is called to account for his behaviour. As the saying goes, when you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

What I see in these types of situations is, when you are used to the privilege of never having consequences no matter how badly you behave, being held accountable for your actions feels like being “cancelled”.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Wow, I had no idea the UK was right behind us! I know their libel laws make it far easier to sue, so perhaps that might be a factor.

The 2000 controversy was a British tabloid story involving sex and drugs. It was reported in the least reliable tabloids, so keep that in mind for context, but did cause a bit of a bruhaha that is now forgotten. Nothing on camera, though, which creates far more sticky and meme-able controversies.

In my feed, yes, there’s everything from the range of people who are in the “I would never ride my horse with a spur or bit ever” camp to UL riders saying they “stand with him,” and thankfully much in between. But social media being what it is, the most extreme views are the noisiest.

[Jealoushe]

oh wow. If you google Mark Todd and cocaine there is a lot of articles!

[TwiSedai]

Quick note to say that I don’t condone the escalation to beating the horse at all. I just wondered what exactly went through his head that made him advance to that.

I’m thinking that maybe he was only intending to wave it around behind the horse as encouragement to keep the forward momentum, it sounds like this was a horse that was otherwise fine with water but needed a bit more forward momentum to prevent it saying, meh, I don’t really wanna. It looks like the rider stopped riding for that last one (not criticizing her, she might have seen the stick and got nervous or just had a moment like we all do sometimes) and MT felt he had to escalate from waving to popping to beating to prevent the horse from learning that stopping was fine. Again, not saying that was okay, but I could understand in the moment thinking “this is a horse who already thinks it can sometimes randomly say no, if I let it say no now after this much pressure the problem will only get that much worse”. I’m guessing that was probably what his intentions were at that point, with a bit of frustration mixed in there I’m sure.

There definitely were many other steps that could have been taken before that point (some of them may have, we didn’t see the entire clinic), and his decisions led up to what happened. My own personal opinion: I don’t think he should be vilified or completely banned from everything, but maybe suspension or some kind of consequence that will at the very least show it’s being taken seriously. I don’t think this one incident is enough to destroy all respect I have for him as a rider and horseman (we are all only human, we do the best we can but sometimes our emotions DO get the best of us), but his actions from here on out are what will influence my opinion of him.

[Bogie]

Someone I know rode her horse in a clinic with Wofford. She felt the horse was overfaced and lost a lot of confidence. I wasn’t there but she came home deeply disappointed.

Earlier in my riding career, I took many clinics with bigger name riders. Some were amazingly helpful, some neutral, and some experiences were pretty bad. Over time I decided to stick with the trainers that I know and always audit a clinic before riding with someone new. I think most of us want to believe that the clinician has exercises that will help us. That’s why we try things that don’t always work as expected. There’s also pressure to not speak up if you think something is too challenging or downright unsafe.

[LadyB]

And in a year it’ll be swept under the rug. Look at Olli, so many people still rave about him, but he loves to go to his whip. ML, she gets praise all the time, but we know she is one to choose abusive methods.

I have witnessed some serious anger with UL riders. Its sad, it comes down to lack of horsemanship and time. Because everything needs to be done quickly to get to the next ride, they go to the quick method instead of the right method.

Extremely sad to see this happening. What I don’t understand is the horse was going well, so why did he even go to that method, horse had already been in, choose a better method and approach.

Some times, Pros seriously suck.

[scislandsprite]

I definitely agree although to be honest, I didn’t think Mark Todd seemed all that angry. He seemed almost methodical in the way that he went about it in the clip to the point where I think he just sees this as a legitimate training technique.

[OverandOnward]

@TwiSedai

I’m thinking that maybe he was only intending to wave it around behind the horse as encouragement to keep the forward momentum, it sounds like this was a horse that was otherwise fine with water but needed a bit more forward momentum to prevent it saying, meh, I don’t really wanna.

Everyone has their own take. But …

Watch the video with the control on start-stop-start-stop, so that you see it in an approximation of slow motion. The horse was not reluctant, not stopping. The horse is forward and moving nicely in the 4 practice runs.

MT has the switch ready as of the 2nd pass in the opposite direction, when the horse is getting its feet wet, and is forward and willing. Why?

The “slo mo” start-stop view shows that on the last approach shown on the video, to the down bank, the horse is cantering up, ears forward, moving well. Willing! Just what you hope for at that moment. The rider is doing her part as well.

MT does not just swing the switch around behind the horse. If he had been intending only that, I don’t think this uproar would be taking place.

MT strikes the horse hard, 9 times. The 10th strike doesn’t connect because the horse has jumped forward and away from it.

Nine hard blows! And the horse has not actually shown this reluctance that so many are assuming must have been there. The horse has been forward and willing!

And the rider was doing her job until the last moment of attack by MT.

Many people are assuming this horse behavior must be happening because that is the trigger for this human behavior as they have seen it in the past. But watch the video with the start-stop on the control to imitate slo-mo. The horse’s ears are forward, he’s going well. There is just no reason to do anything but stand back and encourage, and remind the rider about her position down the bank.

But MT chooses to do something harsh, instead. Why he would make such a decision is alarming, but he is teaching in the moment. He is teaching everyone there that this is how to treat a horse, even a willing horse.

[OverandOnward]

@Bogie

Earlier in my riding career, I took many clinics with bigger name riders. Some were amazingly helpful, some neutral, and some experiences were pretty bad. Over time I decided to stick with the trainers that I know and always audit a clinic before riding with someone new.

Same experience. Came to the same conclusion. Audit first, no matter what name is conducting the clinic.

Or get feedback from someone who has long experience with the person’s training.

[OverandOnward]

@scislandsprite

I definitely agree although to be honest, I didn’t think Mark Todd seemed all that angry. He seemed almost methodical in the way that he went about it in the clip to the point where I think he just sees this as a legitimate training technique.

And this is the biggest part of the public concern, IMO.

That MT and others from his school of training are continuing to teach and pass down these techniques.

The worst part of the entire video is that MT just taught a group of riders who laughed and cheered that this is what you should do. This is the way to treat a horse over a tough obstacle, even a horse that is going fairly well and is ready to move forward with some encouragement.

[scislandsprite]

Really well said. He was so prepared to already be harsh when the horse hadn’t been showing hesitance prior. Also even if the horse did end up being nervous, MT could’ve just had them follow another horse into the water to build confidence. It boggles my mind that anyone could possibly think striking a flight animal would make them more comfortable and confident with something new.

[enjoytheride]

It’s a 2 minute video for which Mark Todd has apologized about.

For everyone busy running it through slo mo and analyzing the horse and rider in great detail and depth for a 2 minute video, have you never made a mistake? EVER? Would you want someone to video record it and post it on the BB and then have dozens of people riding their couches critique it a hundred ways?

If training horses was easy we wouldn’t need trainers or clinics but so many posters know exactly how to do this better.

I find it amazing that people on this BB know exactly what went wrong and how to fix it meanwhile my long suffering trainer has taught me weekly and still hasn’t fixed me or my horse.

How many times have we heard “make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy?”

[endlessclimb]

I just want to say that the title of the thread adds to my angst here.

Oops implies a care-free type mistake. It implies no harm. Oops, I spilled some water. Oops, I dropped my hoof pick. Oops, I drug my leg over my horse’s butt a little when I mounted.

Oops is not applicable to calculated whippings of a horse. I don’t oops abuse my animals.